Podcasts

Intro

Hi, and welcome to Decoding AQ, helping you to learn the tools, mindsets, and actions to thrive in an ever-changing world.

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Ross  

In today's episode, we have a real titan of the podcast world, we have Mark Metry, who founded the Humans 2.0 Podcast, and it is one of Forbes Top 100 Podcasts in the World. So that is an amazing achievement in sort of the world of the Tim Ferriss, of the Gary Vee kind of world. So it's amazing to have him as a guest. It's a conversation not to be missed, so many magical moments and golden nuggets of information. And it really is a deep dive into anxiety, into how anxious people can come out from themselves. What steps do they need to take in order to do that? How can we spot it? How does our brain work as Mark describes the virus inside the brain and the malfunction that leads to so many bad and negative outcomes that we need to rewire, we need to have a process to do that. And he walks us through step by step some of his amazing stories, personal experiences, and stay in for the whole episode because it really is a great one. I love the conversation. And I know you will, too.

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Hi, and welcome to another episode of Decoding AQ. I have with me a titan of the podcast industry. I have a Mark Metry with us. Welcome.

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Mark  

Ross, thank you so much for having me on man. And really, it's just waking up every morning and just executing day after day. And then years later, you look up and you're “Wow, I've done over 600 podcast episodes.”So it's been a cool journey. Thank you for having me on. I'm honored.

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Ross  

That's great. Thanks, Mark. And that's certainly a 10x From where I'm at, I'm at about 50. So 600, there's room for me to grow. But in terms of you Mark, what really intrigued me and excited me for this conversation was how you articulated your life's goal. And your life's goal around education in the education system, and wanting to really change it and shift it to be more fit for purpose, that is in a meaningful way, that actually there's access for everyone to education, regardless of maybe their location, their race, their economic group.

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And I think there's a whole body of people working on that challenge, right? That's the beauty of it. But everyone comes with their own story, their own lens and their own view. So perhaps, where did it start for you in your journey from an intern, in this massive organization that employed 20,000 odd people back in 2015, to where you are now. What were some of the key things that led you to this goal and articulation of reevaluating, relooking at how the education system works? So give us a little bit of a history?

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Mark  

It's super interesting that you say that because I think one of the things that I learned, throughout being an intern and doing these different things, you said, was that nobody really knows anything. And I don't mean to say that and to discredit anybody, or to not say that experts are experts, I think that's all very great. But I think a lot of the times, when you are a younger person, you're just sort of going through the worlds and you're dealing with your obstacles, you're trying to learn, you're trying to make yourself into a better person. And I think a lot of the time, there's these rules or they're these sort of structured ways of doing things.

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And personally for me, when I was an intern, I didn't even think that I was going to get that position in the first place. And I remember when I was interning at this organization, they had assigned me this entire summer project this summer group that I was supposed to run. And it basically took me about two weeks for me to go above and beyond what they had asked me to. And I remember after I finished the project, I was like “Okay, what else should I do?” And they're just like “Do whatever you want.”

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And I remember just spending the rest of my time just literally either playing video games or randomly looking things up online. And I think having that experience in some situations, it taught me that just because you see an organization that is maybe making billions of dollars, maybe they have thousands of employees, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're going about it the right way or it doesn't necessarily mean that they're going about it the most efficient way.

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And I think that experience really taught me oh yeah of course, maybe not all of my ideas are great, I'm definitely not the best at everything, I don't have all the skills in the world. But also it just goes to teach you these things that I think are set in stone, in our perspectives, or in our societies about how the education system works, or how the healthcare system works, a lot of these things are not based off what is actually in the best interest of each person, or even really the core values, but really you'd be surprised to see how much change can happen through one person, a small group of people. 

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And so I think that's been the biggest lesson of me growing up, and going to school. And then coming out of that, it's me realizing oh, there's so many people out there, there's so many kids who are, they're being told, or it's just sort of implied that maybe they're stupid because maybe they don't get the best grades in school. It's just a real fact now that I've known of the way that you view yourself is really defined by the systems of society that you are the most involved in. And some of those, you have no control over some of those you have no idea.

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And then to climb out of that and be wait, you can actually do a lot of different things that maybe you always wanted to do, but in a different way to get a different result. And so I know, that was a very long, complicated answer. But that's really it. And now that I know that, it's definitely given me the ultimate perspective, to be able to work with many different kinds of people to fix all kinds of big problems in the world.

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Ross  

It is, I guess, this realization at various points in our life of what might have come before was designed with the best intent at the moment it was designed. But when things shift and change, have we given ourselves permission to redesign it, and it's not necessarily that things are broken, they just haven't been designed for the environment they now exist it. And I remember, a conversation I had with John Anderson, to come to a point that you were just making there about, he's a big fan of Pareto’s Rule of the 80-20. 80% of our beliefs on actually our own beliefs. And it really made me think, because, well, what do I believe? Do I believe it because of my environment? Because my family, my shows, because of work? Because of all these other things? Or have I come to that belief on my own? Or am I just borrowing that belief of others? 

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So we have of you what you called in the word you use was perception. And this perception that oh, a company, because it's making billions must be doing everything right. And then we see from our own eyes, a different perspective. And we see opportunity for change improvement. And I think what's different sometimes is whilst people can perceive, do they act, so might perceive a need for change, but how do I feel that I can? Do I feel that I'm right? How do I feel that I have permission, if I give myself permission?

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And I find it interesting where, I'm a tech geek, who loves technology, but it's there to serve us, we need to find what the real challenges are and the problems are and let it come and serve. And one of the things that you, again, as I've been reading and do my homework before a conversation of things was just this sense of dedicating your life to the service of others. And that mental health has become this huge tsunami of movement and motion. And your area as it started out and things was very much about your own journey and own self as this introvert this thing about being shy and how do we come out from that. So tell me a little bit more about not only what struggles you may be faced, but how what you've been doing with other people have helped them really live well in front of others, or live their best versions of themselves? And what impact that's had on people. I'd be just really fascinated to learn more about that.

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Mark  

Yeah, it's so interesting. And I also come from a tech background too. And I was heavily involved in all these different tech companies in different tech industries. And in 2017, I sort of just took a pause. And I was just “You know what all this technology is cool, it's very important.” But I think one of the things that I realized was but what about the technology that's in here, that's in our brains, right? And personally for me, I found myself in a spot where of course, technology has completely changed my life for the better for sure. But I also found myself whether it was, when I was back in 2015, back when I was obese using Uber Eats and Postmates to order food, or just watch TV all day or play video games all day, or do whatever else with technology.

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And I really started to realize, “Oh, technology's just a double, for the most part, it's a double edged sword, right?” And it's really dependent on the user. But the thing is that if the user's technology which is their brain, if that's not working at the best of their capabilities, then what's going to happen is that they're actually gonna use that technology and rely on that technology to escape from themselves. And so that's for me, when I really started to be like, “Hey, technology is cool, I definitely want to be involved with it. But hey, I want to focus on the original technology.” And for example, what we were saying about perception, that's a huge part of it, too. Because you could even argue and say that, your perception is essentially the unique set of glasses that your brain learns how to build. And so much of that is created through beliefs. So when I'm walking there's my brain has a belief of “Oh, when I stick my left foot out, and I put my foot on the ground, the ground is not going to collapse, I'm gonna continue to be alive.”

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And so I think there's literally thousands and thousands and thousands of beliefs, at the most microscopic level, with the example of the leg and the floor that I gave. But there's also maybe higher up beliefs, whether it's your political values or whatever you uniquely believe in or your religion. And I think that's so complicated, it really is so complicated. There's tens of thousands of beliefs that your brain is trying to operate in a millisecond basis. And so I think a lot of the times, that's why our brain naturally would just rather accept a belief even if it may not be true, then to try to discover what that means for our own because that can be very complicated.

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And a lot of the times in life what I've learned is that everything is true in terms of everything is paradoxical, you can't make an absolute statement because somewhere in some instance, you're going to get the reverse, which is also true. And so that can be very complicated, right? And so rather than our brain trying to figure that out, it's just like, “Alright this is true or this is false, or this is it.” And I think a lot of the times unless you have an experience that completely melts down your perception to where you're like, “Oh, my God, I can't believe I was thinking like this.” A lot of the times, I think you can go your entire life and not even question that perception and I think that then leads to a lot of other problems in your life that someone can have.

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And personally for me, when I look at the problems that I faced over my life, a lot of them have been with my health, whether it's been in terms of having social anxiety. And I remember, for me, I was never really shy, I was never really an introvert. And there was a period for me when I was about eight, nine years old, where my family and I moved from the inner city to this area, that was very much a small town, and the small town had 5,000- 6,000 people in it. And let's just say that this town was not the most racially diverse and this is also an America post 9-11. And my parents came from Egypt to America. So I just remember facing a tremendous amount of just discrimination and bullying, which really made me be stuck for about 10 years, and I was literally just lost in this sort of just bubble in my brain.

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And it really wasn't until I was about 18 years old, where I found myself aware that I had social anxiety, but unfortunately, that didn't solve my problem. And I found myself obese, I found myself depressed, I found myself socially isolating myself, I found myself even suicidal at one point. And that for me was the massive, slam in the head that completely shifted my perspective, that enabled me to be like “Oh, my God, I have had to face all these problems in my life for a reason.” And I also started to become aware that our brain is very much a machine.  And I think a lot of the times too, whenever my social anxiety would be triggered or my depression would be triggered, and I would face these thoughts. I would always take those thoughts so personally. I would always be like, “Wow, I can't believe I'm such a loser. I can't believe I can't talk to people. Nobody likes me, I have no value to the world.”

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But then as I got older and as I experienced these mental health issues in front of my eyes, being suicidal, really my brain breaking, I slowly but surely started to realize like, “Oh, my brain is this machine that just takes stuff that it's heard before that it thinks is important and internalizes it into my own code of my software and then it spits it back to me in my own voice. And then from that, it makes me have this emotional reaction. And then from that emotional reaction, then I go through these set of habits, and these processes that make me feel worse about myself, and make me think all these different things.” And so that for me was, I think one of the most significant things that I experienced to put it in short, because it really just taught me everything that I just taught you about technology and the brain.

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And its interesting, and then also just as for context, when I was at that point, where I wasn't in a great spot with my mental health. On paper I had everything I wanted. I was making six figures from something that I enjoy doing. I had a great family, I had great friends. But yet there was an internal glitch, a bug in my hardware due to a variety of different reasons that prevented me from my perspective from shifting. And so I think that's been really at the crux of it all if that makes sense. 

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Ross  

It does a lot, in this realization that the wiring and the system that's inside our skull, is influenceable. And most of the time we wander through life without really recognizing that of just how influenced it is from our environment, from the information and feed that we put into the neural net, that then multiplies, it's then multiplies that. So it will find technology or find beliefs, it will find these things and multiply what we're putting in. And as a chemical junkie that is so in need of energy, it uses so much energy, I was so surprised that the calorie burn of a chess player, a grandmaster chess player during a piece can burn 6000 calories.

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Mark

That’s crazy.

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Ross

And I have this belief that “Ah we burn calories when we go and exercise, I see the Olympics, it’s sports, I run a marathon,” you do these things, but actually the energy and power that our mind needs to make sense of all this stuff, to help us with decisions, to help us with beliefs, and how much of it is conscious and unconscious. And I think what intrigued me again, part of this, your original podcast is Humans 2.0, that now has become social anxiety society. And that shift for you have this sense of anxiety, those are things that maybe are wired in the brain that technology in our modern world has multiplied. And it's become this sense where, as you said, you can see and perceive from the outside, all is great, but on the inside be so empty, and be so out of whack.

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And that journey that everyone has to go on to find that inner alignment, to find those things, to deal with anxiety, which is well I'd be interested in what does anxiety mean to you? How would you articulate that in the context of what you've just been talking about of brains and wiring? And is it a glitch in the system? What is anxiety to you?

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Mark  

That's a great question. So I definitely think, part of it is definitely natural, it's a built in system to get you. For example, I remember one time, three years ago, as I was walking in the street of Boston, we were at the Boston Museum of Science, and we're coming out and we were crossing the street. And then all of a sudden, I heard loud noises. And the next thing I knew, I just saw this van, this car literally come up. And in a matter of seconds, my body just jumped out of the way and it sort of already knew what to do. And then when I looked back at that moment, if anyone has ever had sort of a traumatic moment like that, your brain and your body, it does what it's got to do. And then you think back to it, and you're like “Wait, what just sort of happened?” And there's a part of your brain that almost feels it's been suspended. And then the survival part just took over to get you to do whatever you need to do to survive, but then now you're back.

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That's sort of a similar way that I look at it of anxiety. And I think the issue when it comes to anxiety is that everyone gets anxious it’s totally normal. But when you especially as a kid, as a teenager, or even as a young adult, or even when you're an adult, when these things are happening, and maybe it's not a van coming to hit you, maybe in the case for someone like me, it's a social scenario or maybe for someone else, it's a different sort of vibe. And especially if you live in a society where mental health is not really talked about, especially back when I was a kid, you can sort of have no idea. And so what happens is you have these thoughts, you have these emotions that everybody has, but you never process them. And then the next day, you're in the same environment, the same thoughts come up and the next day, you're in the same environment, and the same thoughts come up, and then these different stress is happening, and these things happen.

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And basically, what I think what happens is you get to this level where it really becomes this algorithm, it really becomes to where this thing of like “Hey, something happens in the environment,” your brain reacts a certain way. But then what happens is if your brain is constantly surrounded by that, that's what your brain becomes. So it becomes this automatic algorithm, where every day, every moment, every second, your brain is constantly trying to figure out, “Okay, when's the next van coming to hit me?” And then next thing you know, it starts to take down different parts of your life.

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So for example, if you have social anxiety, and your brain is constantly freaking out over these social interactions, then you walk away and you're like, “Wow, I guess everyone hates me, or wow, I guess there's something wrong with me,” which then starts to chip away at your sense of self-esteem. And then now you don't yourself and now you don't have any sense of self-worth. And that may lead to maybe addiction or substance abuse problems. And so it really becomes what I call this “Algorithmic Virus” that really just destroys your life, and it destroys your brain.

And what happens is when you experience this, especially at a young age, you're 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, that's like the most common age, you have no idea. And so instead of going through like a recovery process, the same way that, for example, if you break your leg, we live in a society where you go to the doctor, they know exactly how to take care of that, they put you through this system of “Hey, put this cast on, then put this crutch on and put this cast on.”

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But when it comes to mental health, when it comes to something this happening, that doesn't exist. And I think what happens is you reach a level where you're 18,19,  20, early 20’s, and your brain breaks, and whether that has to do with you get in a bad relationship or now you're in maybe a toxic work environment. And these things just add in and the next thing you know, there's just the virus so to speak, it takes its toll. And what happens is it creates these mini algorithms within your own brain. And next thing you know, it's not just your thoughts, it's not just your emotions, it literally just becomes your brain's automatic programming, its belief system. And then when that happens too then you may have other issues as well.

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For example, you talked about, the brain consuming a lot of calories. I see so many people today in their job, because most people today who at least are in a career that they really enjoy, a lot of the work that they have to do is similar to a chess player, it's very creative.

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Ross

It’s cognitive.

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Mark

Yeah it’s cognitive, it’s strategic and I find that a lot of people, they're usually sitting in two ends of the extreme. For example, they're barely eating and they're just surviving off water and protein shakes or they're obese and they're eating too much junk food. They're either, and a lot of people they're not going outside

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Ross

The world of extremes.

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Mark

Yeah, there's so many different factors, then what happens is your brain starts to decline and decline, decline. And you just create so many other algorithms, other viruses, and then what happens is that controls your real-world ability, right? So the same way that if you have a computer and you get a virus, and let's say for the sake of this example, the virus it doesn't allow you to get internet access. For example, let's say it blocks your internet connection. That's social anxiety, it blocks your ability to connect and be social with people. Maybe you, for example, a lot of people who have experienced these problems, a lot of them have memory issues. So for example, the virus it takes over the ram of your computer. Now you don't even remember, you have memory, or maybe now you have energy issues. You have issues waking up, you can't really stay focused, you feel like you're always tired.

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So that affects what you're doing in your life. And so it's really this thing that I think starts off as a very small seed, and if not addressed and if not dealt with in the right way, it just tumbles...

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Ross 

Perpetuates. 

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Mark

And goes into this algorithm, into this virus that affects every area of your life and it's gonna be brutal, you know?

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Ross  

I find it really interesting that how everyone rationalizes decisions, thoughts, examples and understanding through stories. And this, I love analogies myself, it's something how I try to understand the world. And this analogy of any event when we say thank you to the way our brain works when a van is about to hit us, and it avoids it. But then downstream from that if our brain is thinking, “Oh that new van is something that isn't a van, it's not life-threatening.” But we get that amygdala hijacking that takes over that actually decreases our cognitive ability to make good decisions.

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It then as you say, perpetuates these downstream events, that manifest in all sorts of things that then become more observable, obesity, or sleeping issues or all these things are downstream from this initial malfunction in the system. As you put it, this virus that's in there that has basically dealing with uncertainty. And that if we deal with it incorrectly, and think that uncertainty is life threatening, we get that amygdala hijack, and we then perpetuate this problem of not being able to make rational decisions and they become more led by this anxiety virus that's in there.

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And the work we're doing about figuring out, how do people adapt? What are the abilities? What's the character? And what is the environment? Things like psychological safety in a team that we can share challenges. Well, having that environment helps us lower this amygdala hijacking for somebody, for us to be ourselves and not be judged. But if we're the ones judging, we need our own level of psychological safety. Let alone team psychological safety. And I think this is important work, right? It's important work for us all to do is to make sure we're wiring for the environment correctly.

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It's a bit coming back full circle, take a system health care, education, it was fit for purpose when it was designed, it's not broken, it's now just no longer fit for purpose, the way in which our fear system and amygdala worked when “Ah there's a life threatening event,” to this, it's now no longer necessarily fit for purpose when it's not life threatening, but we think it might be uncertainly “Oh, am I going to lose my job? Or am I'm not going to lose my job? Is this happened? Is this happening?” And suddenly it that snowball effect happens.

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And I wonder, this challenge of the last 18 months, where we're going through this global experiment of what mass uncertainty is, what massive rapid shift and change in every industry and everyone's habits, everyone's lives, we're used to doing and we crave certainty, with a little bit of uncertainty, but not too much of it. Like it on our terms, but not when it's not on our terms. What are the some of the challenges or things that you've seen that can practically help with that? We talked about “Oh resilience is an answer, this is an answer, or meditation or all of these things? Where do people start in having those conversations with themselves? And maybe trying to deal with that virus? Is there a vaccine for this anxiety virus? Is there a process we can go through? And I know you do a lot of work in this area, leveraging VR, tech or just straightforward things? What could you advise people to help to understand, they might not even realize they're anxious about things, but they see a downstream effect coming out, and they need to go back words to solve root cause? So give us a little bit of your thought, Mark on that.

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Mark  

Yeah, yeah. What a question, what a question. I definitely want to flip the question back to you as well. Unfortunately, I don't think that there is some sort of a virus or not a virus. I don't think there's some sort of a vaccine yet. But I think really what it is, so I think obviously depends on the person but I think what is the most helpful is you need to have some sort of an experience that can show you firsthand the opposite of what you're feeling.

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So for me, for example, one of these feelings was being able to work on myself, for example, and learn healthy habits. So that in about, I think maybe six months time whether it was my energy or my sense of motivation or how I woke up in the morning, it was fundamentally different. I had told you before about always having sleep problems as a kid, and I literally remember the first day, I didn't have sleeping problems. It was November of 2016 and I woke up and I was like, “Huh, I fell asleep, what's going on?”

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Ross  

That's what good sleep feels like.

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Mark  

Yeah, I'm like, “What just happened?” And when you experienced that, I think what's happening is you're directly showing your brain, the opposite of what it believes is true. And I think once you have that sort of benchmark, so I think a lot of the times too, when you live your life and the algorithm is year by year, taking you down, you live this very static life. It’s a very black and white life, where every day you show up and the same things happen, the same people talk to you in a certain way, the same experiments, the same reactions happen. And I think when that happens, you stop using your mind, you stop thinking accurately. And what happens is, you start to really just replace critical thinking with overthinking, and getting a thought multiple times, that's not you thinking, that is the algorithm, putting out more of the stuff.

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And so a lot of times when you live a life that, you just don't think it's possible to feel any different. You feel like you're completely hopeless. And so I think having an experience, like a physical biochemical experience, where your brain is “Hmm, wait, actually, maybe we're wrong, maybe actually, there is a different way to work.” I think that's one, I think that's huge. And then I think number two is going through, similar to what I said of if you break your leg, you have to go through this recovery process to where you go to the doctor, they put you in this three stage program, where they give you a cast, and then they maybe transition you to crutches. Because I think if you're not doing that, you're always just going to be putting bandaid options.

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And for example, physical exercise. Exercise is so good for you, it's great. I go for a walk every day, I go to the gym every day, I move, I do yoga, all these things are great. Physical exercise is amazing, you need it. But for example, I think one of the issues that come with having something like mental health now being mainstream is that I think people just associate mental health or self care with just things that feel good in the moment. And I think the issue with that is, of course, you should do that, of course, that's great.

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But again, if you don't go down to the root process if you don't go through a recovery process, but every day to deal with depression, or social anxiety you've had every day, you just go exercise and you just don't do anything else. You may of course, you're doing something, something is better than nothing, for sure. But it's not really a step-by-step process for you to go down in the roots. And personally, for me, just as an example for that was personally, for me, one of the things that I had to do is I had to learn how to feel safe when talking to people and in my relationships.

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And what I didn't know for so long was that part of my social anxiety came from part of my brain being like, hey this person who you're talking to, whether it's even my parents, or my best friends, there's like, “Hey, this person is going to reject you, they're going to hate you. And so you should hide who you are and create this fake version of yourself that is societally acceptable.” And when you do that one time it's okay, when you do that a second time, your brain starts to learn like, “Aha, we have a coping mechanism to try to deal with this.” And I think a lot of the times, things that we do to just survive in the moment, to help us feel a little bit better, those don't actually make us better in the long term.

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And so it's really this step-by-step process of feeling safe in relationships. It's really trying to figure out who you are, it’s trying to figure out how has your memory messes you up and what are the wrong ways that you think about yourself. It's going through this systematic process, to then be able to climb out of that and then be able to for example, be confident. Because a lot of times when people think social anxiety they think, “Oh, well you're a little shy,” when it comes to people, “Oh, just be more are confident or speak up.”

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And that may be the outward appearance of it. But on the inside it is a cycle of the psychological battles with your biochemistry. And you really have to go down into a recovery process step by step. Because if you don't, you're just gonna be chasing bandaid fixes, and the same issue is going to be there. And you're not going to build a sense of understanding for yourself, or a sense of even self love for yourself. And it's very tricky, it's very, very, very tricky for sure.

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Ross  

It is and you made me think about a few different things here. One, the first point that you were making about mental flexibility. Life is a paradox and trying and seeking out these opposites to give your brain some other data inputs. And one of the things that we found because we measure mental flexibility, and in that ability to hold two opposing thoughts at the same time, and not end up in a padded cell, it's not easy. And to challenge something that we believe, I think an area that's helpful is don't start with the big stuff, if this is a deep rooted belief, go in and find in the opposite to that is going to be hard work for you.

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So find things that are maybe a little bit more open for is that really a deep belief, or you're not sure. Or maybe give yourself some other opposites, a different paradox, a different thought, and work there so that you build confidence to allow yourself to think differently. I loved your comment about just thinking the same thought over and over again is not critical thinking and that was a lovely moment, Mark, that I think just letting that sink in for people is an important part.

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The other one that made me think is, a lot of us know the right stuff. You're talking about exercise, right? We all know, we've got to eat well, we've got to exercise well, but can we do it? And then if we have a moment where we don't do it, does that make us worse? “Oh, I didn't do my yoga yesterday, so am I now more anxious about it,” versus where, “If I blissfully go through life not even knowing yoga was a good thing for me to do, maybe I'm less anxious.” So because we're so overexposed to all of these great, here's this tip, here's this hack, here's this thing, it puts this immense pressure on us to be the version of “I've got to pursue this, I've got to do that. And I've got to do this new thing that I just listened to Mark, Ross talk about and these bits,” is just to sometimes give yourself a break and as you said, prepare for the event.

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So the cast, the recovery, prepare for that mental event. So if that mental event, is the choice to do yoga, or is the choice to go and look at an alternative viewpoint. What preparation are you doing for that? Is it have you slept? Have you ate well? Have you taken four deep breaths before you go and do it? And so maybe part of that whole process that we can build up is just those slow little things to help us in the recovery to rewire, when rewire can “Oh spark didn't like that,” or go back and we have this fostered acceptability. Which is what you talked about at the end there of your piece of, we behave a certain way to fit in and it becomes then just our own fostered acceptability of who we are and what we become.

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But at some point, we have a break, where we have a crisis of identity, a crisis of some form because it's not in alignment and flow. And so sometimes it just needs to break. Other times we can think about that be a bit more reflective and say “I don't want it to break, I'm going to work on new things towards it.” So many excellent, just ways to reflect and think and of course, every time we have conversations, we have a balance of new knowledge, mixed with pressure, mixed with “Oh that validated what I was already thinking” to, “Oh, that's different.”

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So all of these things in our mind as you say, go on. Somebody who is maybe not reached a critical moment, suicide thinking, a big event of those things. What are some of the indicators that they could see to maybe catch it earlier so we're not reacting in a state of complete crisis, but maybe we can put some interventions. What might we see of others that we can maybe help them or see of ourselves if we just stepped out for a moment? What are maybe some things that you've seen that could help us be those early warning signals that we can do something about?

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Mark  

This is a great question. I think one is falling into this nihilistic mindset of “Oh, nothing matters. Nothing I do matters, the world is going to crap. Everyone's gonna die.” I think that mindset or the steps leading up to it, I think that's a very dangerous mindset. And that's something that I've been in, I think a lot of my life, I think that's a huge one. Number two is I think, anything, any message from your body, so whether it's panic attack, not sleeping at night, you feel yourself your body shaking, something like that, maybe something that you don't recognize. I think that is another huge sign.

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And then I think three too when you just think about your life, and you just think about this sense of fun that you have. And I think a lot of the times I say that because a lot of, I think really productive people, they often fall into this mindset of just they wake up in the morning, they look at their schedule, they're like “Okay, I have to prepare for these things.” Maybe they already have some sort of a self-care routine, it's exercising yoga, and they just sort of go through the motions. But then they're not actually even having one moment in the day, where they just laugh like a little kid, or they let themselves get lost in a very deep conversation that stimulates them. Or they have a sense of fun when they were a kid or sense of joy. I think that is very important. 

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And I often, I sometimes find myself, maybe missing some of those things, every once in a while. And I know, that's always a reminder of like “Huh, you gotta watch out there,” and because that's definitely a sign. I think also crying too. I think whether you cry too much or cry too little, I think those are signs too. I know for me when I haven't cried, that's like a sense of my emotions kind of hardening up and this shell develop going on the outside of me. And I always know, you gotta cry and I was trying to cry. I don't try to cry once a month, it just sort of happens or it doesn't. And I always use that as like, “Okay, that's an indicator,” of being emotionally healthy. I think another thing too is like your relationships because I think, especially your intimate relationships if you have a partner, I definitely think for the most part, your relationship can be a reflection of you. And I think a lot of times, whether you have a…

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Ross  

That very quickly, Mark. I've got to grab something from my wall, of that exact point.

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Mark  

Okay, go, go. I'm excited. 

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Ross  

Yeah you made me smile. And of course, people who are watching this video they'll see it, but we can put it in. This, I don't know whether you can.

Mark

Damn, I got to get a screenshot of that. Hold on, hold on.

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Ross

For those who are just listening, I've got a framed piece. And it says, “The true indicator of a man's character is the health of his wife.” So that comes to your point, right? Is it that are we, the people around us, are they healthy? And having great relationships and those things are important factors, aren't they? So just to summarize a couple of those points before we finish up because we're coming to the witching hour.

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Look out for the signs and listen for the signs in our body, whether that's something that is different or we don't recognize, really listen to it. Because that is part of life and we can decide, do we want that repeated again? Or do we want it to be different? And so we can reflect and think about that, like you say, too much crying, not enough crying? Are we looking out for these things? And do we expose ourselves to the experiences of the fullness of life? And this other part of being ready and prepared to have these things, you talked about doing the deep work is going to be hard.

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So having that sort of moments in our time where we have a laugh, where we have a cry, we have those things, helps us to then do the deep work which is gonna hurt and be painful, but we need those elements and rather than this life of balance is just life’s of intense presentness. And deliberate intent into those moments and live them and decide if you want to stay in there or do I want to come out, do I want to go over here of those things, I think is part of all of our expansion of our fulfilled and valuable life.

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And for me all around teaching people the skills and environments to adapt in periods of change. Life is change. And one that is instead of reactive, we're proactive to make it on our terms starts with self. And knowing that you have choice, I think is one of the biggest things that you have choice. And to see if the opposite mindset of that negative spiral is a mindset of hope, a belief that tomorrow is going to be better and that I do have a valuable contribution versus tomorrow is going to be worse, and I have no valuable contribution

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So find if taking your advice, Mark, of that opposite that paradox, who could you help just in a little way to be in service is a great way of spinning out of that negative spiral that I have no value, find someone that you could just go and help in some small way. And that's a great piece. As a final bit that I ask people that as I've been getting more and more into the podcast is, and it's so linked I think is, what experiences someone done for the first time. And so my question to you is, when was the last time you did something for the first time?

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Mark  

Hmm, good question. Let's see here, kind of randomly like last week, I would go for a walk in this park. And I always do that. But then for example, I just started to notice, there were some fish that were swimming in the little, it's a huge lake and I would just always look at them like every time. And for example, last week, I was just like “Hey, you know what, let me just try to do some fishing.” And so basically, what I would do is I would throw some pieces of food down. And I had this very small net. And I would just catch these fish. I just put them in the bucket, and then I'd release them at the end. And it was just a very interesting thing where I was just like, “Huh, I always walk by, I've seen fish all the time in my life.” But just the act of catching the fish and then putting them back. It's a very great feeling. I don't know, it's kind of hard to explain. So I think that's like the last thing I did that was new. There's also something else I'm forgetting what it is but I know it happened like a week ago or so. But that's the one that comes to mind.

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Ross  

That’s brilliant and it's interesting how different people respond to it. And what I've found as a thread is it's not necessarily something so brand new and so out of the ordinary, it was finding the unexpected in something that was normal. And that is an area where we don't recognize it, we haven't told our brain “Hey, we did something different or new,” unless we reflect on it until someone asked us that question. “Oh, no, I did my walk. And I just did that on my walk. Because I go to the walk and see fish every day I do that.” Whereas, “No, something I did every day, I then decided and chose to do something I hadn't done before or differently.” Wasn't so out of the wall, it wasn't jumping out of a plane, it wasn't these things it was, where in my daily life, in the things that I always do, could I see it through a new set of eyes? Could I go and explore a new experience? And I think that's something we lose. When we're young, everything's new, everything's new. And as we get older, less and less feels new. But that's just the lenses and the glasses we look through our experiences and journey through life.

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Mark

Yeah and we can retrain those lenses, that’s the big one.

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Ross  

We can, we can. And you have developed this, you talked about it a little bit on our conversation today, this need for sort of baby steps and a step by step process and following a program through a methodology, through a way in which you can manage social anxiety and just be able to live in your own cell of your authentic self. So perhaps just give us a little bit of a hit to what that program is, what the master class is, how do they connect with you, Mark? If that's something that they think, “Hey, you know what, a lot of what you've been talking about, I recognize that in myself, I need help. Where would I go if I want to connect with Mark and let really connect with how I can be a better version of myself?”

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Mark  

Yeah, that's a great question. So the easy answer is if you go to my website, MarkMetry.com There will be an email box and you can put your email in. And every week I send out these very informational articles, newsletters, and if you respond to any of those emails that you get, it'll go directly into my inbox and I always respond to every single one of those so, and that's of interest definitely check it out. And yeah, I do have this masterclass that I came out with a few months ago. And people can access that if they just go to my website MarkMetry.com/Program, woof spelling. And really it's just my way of, it's like this 45-day online course, it's anonymous, it’s self paced. Part of it is interactive as well and it's really it's just designed to, even if someone feels they can't talk to anyone, or they don't want to talk to anyone, it's designed for you can do it individually. There's also a group program too, we're really just every day you wake up, and they'll just literally tell you what steps will you need to learn, how you should learn it, what you need to do, it's the simplest, possible way. I've been working on it for the last two years. So that's definitely the best way where people can check that out. And please, people reach out to me anytime I'm very accessible. I'd love to hear from people.

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Ross  

I love it. Thanks, Mark. And you've given me a thought for maybe we'll have to do a part two, because some research that we found a few years back and is becoming more and more developed is this sense of people who find it difficult to have conversation with other humans, how are they having conversations with innate beings, ie chatbots, AI, all of those things. And not only ones that find it difficult, but for all humans and all individuals. Who they show up with in conversation with technology is different to who they show up with another human. And a lot of research is showing that they're showing up as more of themselves, we think about “Oh, you'll create this mask, and this, oh I'm going to be this avatar version of myself,” that's not really real, we found that we're creating that when we see that other humans are going to be there and judging us. And so we'll create a version that we think fits in or is better or is our alter egos.

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But if it's not being judged, it's just for us like an AI coach or those kinds of things, we show our inner selves. And that I think is a fascinating opportunity of where maybe technology can show up and serve us to help us evolve through this challenging virus that is so rife in society right now of anxiety and mental health challenges. And I think there is an opportunity for something we're working on that allows accessible almost the Iron Man Jarvis by your side to deal with whatever challenges you're going through, like a best friend would but knows intimately about you and can support you as your AI coach.

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And so I think that's an interesting thing and that I'd love to chat to you about another point, maybe that would be another one. But there's some amazing work going on in so many different fields from Deepak Chopra who has digitized and got an AI version of himself to all sorts of areas that I think is going to be an interesting society that we're going to be living in very soon.

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Mark  

It's so crazy, man. I remember when I was a kid, the only times that I remember feeling my best self is when I was online, playing video games. So makes a lot of sense. 

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Ross  

Maybe play online in you go. Awesome. Thanks, Mark. It's been a real eye-opener. Great fun to hang out and look forward to our next conversation.

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Mark  

Yeah, you're awesome. Ross. This is great. You're a great host. Thank you for having me.

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Outro

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