Podcasts

Intro

Hi, and welcome to Decoding AQ, helping you to learn the tools mindsets and actions to thrive in an ever-changing world.

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Ross  

Hi and welcome to another episode of Decoding AQ, I've got a very special guest with me today coming in from New York, she's just getting a caffeine boost in the morning, I have Dr. Ruth Gotian. So welcome.

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Ruth  

Thank you, I am excited to be here.

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Ross  

That's good. And I listened to something, an interview before and you described your mission to help people who want to be more successful and to give them the tools to do so. Now that to me, is so aligned to what we're looking to do, it's an important work to ensure that us as humans live our best versions of ourselves in our lives. So thank you for doing that work.

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Ruth  

Thank you, it's definitely a privilege and it's definitely something that I will never finish doing. Because there's always more to do and as there are changes in our lives are always new things that we want to achieve. So I have this incredible ability to do this amazing work for as long as people want to be successful, which is hopefully forever.

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Ross  

I think so. And it's one of these wonderful, ambiguous gray touch terms that we decide ourselves what we want it to mean and be. We can have collective opinion on something. And we can have alignments of certain principles but still fundamentally, it's an intrinsic piece to what do we define that as, and then in this shift from a pursuit of something to an expansion of we already have it, it's now a shift to how do we expand our success rather than to pursue and it's never there or we're constantly chasing. So I liked that.

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Ruth  

It’s so interesting that you say that, because most people don't pick up on that. Most people are trying to live up to other people's definition of success instead of their own definition. And I think the fact that you picked up on that it's very interesting. So I can tell you from interviewing all of these extreme, high achievers, the astronauts and Nobel Prize winners, the Olympic champions, success is a moving target. There's always more, there's always more to achieve. There's always more to do. And there's always factors that are changing. But you have to define what success is for you. Because if you're always going to be working by other people's definition of success, you're going to burn out or fail out. It's just not sustainable. But when it comes from within, that's where the fire burns.

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Ross  

It's the fire burn, that not just the passion spark, but the ability for it to continually be going, the passion is the oxygen in our view of this, a great one of our components, and it's this balance between perseverance and passion. And I know that it's one of your core mindset principles for success, is that extreme passion and it linking to an intrinsic motivation is so so important through challenges.

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Ruth  

It has to be, it has to be intrinsically motivated. And I share this, it's not just people who are at the NBA champions or the Nobel Prize winners who have found their intrinsic motivation. In my book, The Success Factor, I actually share a story of something that happened to me, I was 43 when I decided to go back to school, and get my doctorate while working full time. And one of the last classes that you take is to get you prepared for your proposal, your dissertation proposal.

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And I remember the professor asking everyone in the class, why are you getting your doctorate? Because many of us were older and working full time and had families and everyone walked around and gave their answers. And I remember thinking, based on their answers, “This one's going to finish, this one's not, this one's going to finish, this one's going to finish, this one's going to finish, this one's not.” I don't know how I knew, but I knew. And what I now recognize is that those who were pursuing their doctorate, which I can tell you is a long, expensive, difficult and isolating road.

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Those who are doing it to answer a why question, there was something that they just needed to figure out, they had to get the answer. There was just this question that was begging to be researched. Those are the people who finished and finished in record time and did exceptional work. Those people who said they were doing it for the recognition, for the diploma, for a promotion, those people years later were still not done because their motivation was external. 

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And what happens when that is not there anymore? Well, your light goes out. So that's why it's so important to be able to really get into what your passion is. And that's for everyday life, not just for the extreme, high achievers, but that's how you get on the road to becoming a high achiever. And that's why I take people who I work with on a passion audit, to figure out what it is that you are so passionate about, so that you can be able to do that, and I have that right on my website, for anyone who's interested.

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Ross  

It's interesting, the various things that come into focus, whether we always see what we look for and we can find the data or we find the rooms that have this bias to what we believe. Whether we see all this stuff about flow state and off we go about it, we see this stuff about find your why, find your passion. And you mentioned something about this endless expansion, and someone, one of my favorite kind of quotes or thoughts was, all works are just abandoned, they're never finished, whether it's a book, a painting, art, all of these things is that they're endless.

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And so this thought of a finite success point, or a finite passion. It's just this endless, just curious discovery and poetic dance, right? We see that mountain, we go, “Oh it’ll be lovely to go over there, that's my mission, that's my goal,” whatever hierarchy it is, short, long, we get to it. And we see new things. And we then expose ourselves to make new choices and new decisions. And one of the other things I wanted to dig into a little bit for people was, we all travel this journey of life. And the one constant that we think of is ourselves are always going to be there. But actually, ourselves change so many times through life.

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So whilst we have friends, and we choose very actively, when we're high achieving the right rooms, that give us the right feedback or whatever it may be, how often do we do that to ourselves? How often we see our past or future selves as different people so that we can shed an identity or we can create a new one? What was pre-doctor to post-doctor for Ruth? And you talked about the why and the intrinsic. What was your motivation for doing it? You talked about our why needed in this question. What were the things that triggered it in your 40’s to do that?

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Ruth  

So I always knew I was going to get my doctorate from the time I was in college and then got my master's degree, but then it sort of went on a back burner when I started working and got married and had kids and then that backburner was so far away, I almost forgot about it. And then it came to a point that a lot of things happened. But one of the things that happened was we were launching a new student information system. And I was there because of my previous role in all of the meetings, and I could see what was not going to work. And I knew how to fix it. And I knew it would be the correct way. But I didn't know why it was the correct way. I couldn't answer that why question.

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And I tell people, it's as if you go to a doctor, they know what medicine to prescribe, but they don't know how that medicine works. I needed to know how the medicine worked. And I needed to figure that out, right? So all of these things so I could rely less on intuition and know that there's actually some science behind it. And I decided it's now or never. So I applied to only two schools because I knew that what I wanted to study was extremely competitive. And I knew that I was in a stage in my life where I might be older than some of the professors. And I got into my first choice, and the rest is history. 

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Ross  

We think of our adaptability, profiling and trying to measure it and basing it in ground science, and evidence-based work and we came across this thought of motivation. We've mentioned it a couple of times already about intrinsic, extrinsic, and what drives us to make certain decisions and are we living the lives that our parents, when we got an applause, we liked that so we do it again. Or when we got a slap we stopped doing it and we don't do it anymore. Or rebels play with those boundaries. But in terms of when change is required, when an environmental factor changes, a marketplace, a job, a work, a career, a skill that was valuable last week might not be valuable next week, because it gets displaced by something else, somebody else or, it was, tech that's eating it, it's now software that's eating most things, right?

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What we look at in motivation is a motivation style when it comes to change. Are you motivated by playing not to lose? So in defense, you might need a burning platform to then do the change or by playing to win, a burning ambition. And sometimes it can be a mix of these things. So for you, maybe that doctorate had a burning ambition, but it stayed on the shelf, until it combined with a burning platform now or never, and don't want to lose the opportunity. And this adaptability sort of the intelligence is not that there's one answer or perfect profile, but it's the ability to use these different tools in the right context.

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And that to me, I want to dig a little bit into flow state, because you've mentioned it a few times in various interviews and some of your articles and things. Having mentored and coached thousands of people, interviewed lots of high achievers. This almost place to get to of this flow state. I don't know if you've come across, Steven Kotler’s work and did you know him, The Art of the Impossible, and he talks a lot, and he runs the flow research piece. Tell me what your thoughts are about flow and how it can maybe help us learn what we might be able to do as mere mortals to utilize that state that's super effective for success.

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Ruth  

So let's talk about what flow state is because when you get it, it is magical. It is so incredible. And you could get so much work done in such a short period of time. You are so in the zone, you are so laser-focused, that all of the external distractions just melt away. So you are not tired, you are not hungry, you don't need to go to the bathroom, you are not sore from sitting so long, you are so focused on what you are doing. That doesn't come very often. One of the people who I interviewed was Apolo Anton Ohno who is the most decorated winter Olympian for American Winter Olympics. And he told me, he just had it a handful of times in his entire career. So for him, it's when the state in when he skates just blends into his uniform, which blends into with the ice, everything just merges together. When you can get that, you hang on to it.

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One of the ways that I like to encourage people to do it is through a technique that's quite popular. It's called the Pomodoro Technique, which means you work in sprints. Now, what happens is when you get into this flow state, and I said that time just melts away. If you're in that flow state for too long, it's just not sustainable. So you want to be able to do it in chunks, right? So the original Pomodoro Technique said, you work for 20 minutes, take a five-minute break, work for 20 minutes, take a five-minute break, work for 20 minutes, take a five-minute break, and after three Pomodoro is you take a longer break.

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For me, I know I need longer than 20 minutes, I need 30 to 40 minutes, right? So you start to tweak it a little bit. So I do the run on the washing machine is my one Pomodoro. And everything gets shut off. The emails are shut off, the text messages are shut off. There's no social media notification, there is nothing else I am responding to except for what I'm working on. And when you start to do it that way, you will see that you get into this flow state and the amount of work that you can get done. And it's not just busy work, it's work that you're so excited about because you got to really delve deep into it because you were so focused for once in your life about it. It is great. And if you can get there, you want to work towards getting there because it's so good when it happens.

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Ross  

I like to think of it, the flow state exists inside you that you're allowing to come out rather than this, ‘I have to go and find it and have it come on me.” And It's interesting I use something called “Focus@Will,” I don't know if you've come across it, but it's a company that stream specific music to help your brain get into flow state. So where, for example, you have all of these different conditions were at one end of the spectrum, you might have ADHD, where you really can't stay focus for five minutes, let alone 20 or a half an hour on anything, and you're highly distracted. And you might prescribe a drug for that you might subscribe, say Ritalin, for example, one of our family terrible stories of when he was young had that and a lot of bad side effects of it.

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This particular audio that they've designed in science studies have been more than five times as effective as Ritalin on the ability to quiet in a busy mind. And of course, you haven't got the negative effects of playing with the chemicals that you're putting in. And I know my first book, I wouldn't have done it without Focus@Will music going on. Because music is a really interesting one, isn't it? Where they've had all play this music to different waters, to plants, to pre and post doing exams using classical, etc. How does it affect us, and having music in the background at certain points, it can be the distraction, that because it triggers a memory of “Oh when that played, that's when I hung out with Ruth at the coffee shop in New York,” and it takes us there to actually allowing us to be in this neutral negative brain state for then flow of activity.

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So it's interesting, you're talking about it, and your excitement and energy of getting to it. And somebody at the peak of their mastery in their chosen discipline, only getting to this a few times in their life, it almost feels like it's unobtainable. So maybe, for me, I might never have experienced true flow state. But if I think I did, and I got some results, is that good enough? What’s your view of that?

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Ruth  

I think that’s good enough. Look, how did we start our conversation?  If it's your definition of success then it works. And it's something that recognizes you have to realize how you learn best and how you work best. So for me, music would be a distraction. However, I could work in a coffee shop. And all that I need the background noise, which I mute out. But it becomes white noise for me and I can actually work better than in perfect silence. But if it was music, then I couldn't concentrate at all. So you have to know what decibel. And you learn that over time.

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Another thing to consider is what time of day do you work best? I am a morning person I wake up super early, I've always been that way, I can get more done by 10 am than most people get done all day. I can get more done by 10 am than I can the rest of the day. Because I'm so focused in the morning, and I am sharper in the morning. So that's why I do all of my cognitive tasks during those peak hours. So I do my writing, I do my editing, budgets, grants, that's always in the morning. And I leave usually my afternoons and evenings for more passive tasks, meetings, Zooms and things like that.

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Because I find that if I waste time responding to emails in the morning, I am eating away, I am eating away during peak cognitive time. And I can't put a Zoom in there if that Zoom can be in the afternoon, I preserve every precious minute of those cognitive hours. And that especially happened when I was writing my book. Because I needed that focus time because I could bang out thousands of words in the morning. But if I only started in the afternoon, I'd be working on it for days.

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Ross  

So this definition of this thing we call work, where we go and we exchange experiences knowledge, thought, problem-solving for some sort of return, whether that is expanding impact, helping people become more successful or a check that goes in the bank. One of the challenges I think that we're going through this redefinition and re-view and a new kind of social contract for what work actually means and how much learning is involved in work, where a skill might have a half-life that would take us through a career to now having multiple careers, career portfolios, being an author, being a speaker, being a podcaster, being a person who deals with budgets, and education at universities and all of these different things.

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For leaders today, this is a really complex challenge, right? To Ruth, no she wants to do stuff in the morning, somebody else wants to do stuff over here, someone wants to do this. How do we optimize the success of not an individual, but of a team with all of those complexities? And I'd be really interested in your work where this expansion, optimization of success of individuals, is it different when it comes to teams? Is it the same? Or what are the things that you've learned that teams are doing really well, to get success at scale of that?

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Ruth  

Right. So I think one of the things to realize, first of all for individuals, it's important if you trust them to get the work done, let them get the work done on their own timetable. Let them know when it needs to get done, what is the deadline, and if you give them the framework, trust that they will get it done, especially if they've proven it to you in the past. The second thing is in terms of teams, I think what's important to understand is most people try to put teams of people who work in the same way and they try to put those people together. That does not create a high-performance team, that creates a high disaster. Because you have everyone who's doing things the same way, thinking about things the same way working the same way. You're getting no new ideas, no new perspectives, you have blinders on, you don't see these huge problems that might be right in front of you, because you're not trained to look at that.

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So I think getting people who think differently, and do things differently, is a strength. You want someone who's the abstract thinker, and you want someone who executes the smallest details, and you want someone who brainstorms ideas, and you want someone who thinks of possible solutions, and you want someone who thinks of potential problems. You want all those kinds of people on the same team, it is rarely one person. So I think it would really behoove the team to really get those kinds of diverse thinking involved if you want high performance. And if you want same old, same old, go with same old, same old.

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Ross  

And that's the true holistic view of diversity, right? It's all of the above, of yes, of cultures, backgrounds, ethnicity, experiences, but thinking, thinking styles approaches, all of those. And in that pot, you're going to have beautiful friction, horrible friction, you're going to have nice flow, not nice flow, you're going to have all of these complexities that make some people smile, and others pull their hair out. What are the sort of things that can go in there that leaders could do today to make it almost like fertile ground?

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If we're thinking of this, that we've got all of these different types of crops that we're trying to grow, the same soil isn't going to be good for a tomato as it is for wheat or these things but yet a team leader in an organization has to provide the environment for that to all function and work. And these are the challenges when you shift from individual to small teams to then large, massive organizations that find it hard often to do the really innovative work, and they have to splinter out little groups.

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So in terms of those leaders that are supporting this massive shift that's required in reskilling, in transformations, in unlocking a lot of the technological opportunities that humans are often the immune system comes in to be adverse to that. Where are some things that you have seen that helps people get through some of those challenges that they inevitably are going to face?

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Ruth  

So I think a big challenge is that we're focusing on the wrong people. So I think in the workplace, everyone's always shooting for baseline, what is the average? We're always talking about? Where is the bar? What is the average? Did you meet that baseline? And if you don't meet it, we have corrective action plans, we have milestones for you to hit, we have someone for you to check in with all the time. We've got a plan for you.

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Ross

Here’s your pip, yeah.

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Ruth 

Right. Now, what about the people who are exceeding that bar? No one pays them any attention. Those are the people you really want to focus on. Because they will say to you if you ask them, “I think if I learned this new skill, it would add value because…” They'll come to you saying I want to learn more. I want to do more. I want to bring in more. I want to add value more, but those people are being completely ignored. We don't have plans for them. We don't have new milestones for them to hit. We don't have someone who's mentoring them and checking in with them to see how they're doing. Those are the people that we need to start spending more time with. And trust me their work, their productivity is 400% more than an average employee, 400% we need to focus on those people.

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Ross  

And we're so used to the squeaky wheel, right? Getting the oil. So this shift to think about, and it's a challenge for us as a business, our mission is to leave no one behind. So that's someone who doesn't even squeak are the ones who squeak and the ones who should be squeaking who aren't squeaking and the ones who never squeak but you could help, in all of that mix of what we have in our business.

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And I think one of the challenges has always been resources, budgets, time and personalization. You mentioned people learn in different ways, do they learn by watching others, people around them, a TED talk, whatever modalities there are, or by doing an experimentation or by research is that, that's hard to put all of those different types of things “Here you are, here's a department store called the learning thing.”

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Now in your environment and role as a chief learning officer, how do you go about providing opportunities to be better than they are today for everyone? Not leaving whatever group it is, whether it's the high-performing 400% yeah, we want to give loads of those, to the responsibility we have for those that might need to have support, but they're not even squeaking yet. What do you put in place and what are the thoughts that you have going on in your mind across such diversity of competence and ambition? How do you design learning programs for that sort of environment?

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Ruth  

I do a lot of customization. But really, what I do is, I ask people, what are your goals? And most people have never been asked that. Sure they get asked on a performance appraisal. But what happens on all those 11 other months of the year? What are your goals? Now, what are you doing to meet those goals? So very often we write the goals, but we don't talk about what it takes to get there. And I think that those are the biggest conversations I have with people is how to come up with the goals, come up with the plan, customize those programs for them. Some people especially the people who I work with quite a bit, who are physicians and scientists, they want to just read on their own how to go about it, and they want someone to check in with them for accountability.

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And that's what they need because of their schedules, which are not something that they can control. So that works for them. And I very often give them books or articles or podcasts, or we talk about different ways to manage time, manage energy, band productivity. But I think a lot of what they're looking for as an accountability partner. You don't get to become a physician without going through a lot of schooling and knowing how to do things. But when we talk about teams, we also talk about how to put people together and I actually, all of our trainees have gone through a learning style inventory, to figure out how they learn best.

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Ross  

And then matching it so that customization, what are some of the big challenges in scaling that customization that you've faced? And how have you overcome them? Because I'm confident that will be a same challenge for many organizations and many Chief Learning Officers is you have these principles, you have that the theory, it's asking the right questions, customize the programs and the way they go, whatever that may be. But it's a lot harder than that, in rolling out and the implementation of it. So what have you put in place that helps that and what are some of the challenges? And then I've got one final question for you, Dr. Ruth, which I will finish this up on that I am quite interested to see what your response is. But yeah, what are some of the challenges in taking that theory of customization and the sort of principles of it into the real world at scale and how you overcame that?

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Ruth  

So I really practice what I preach. So that means when I do things, I create them in different modalities, so that they have a buffet of options that they can pick from. If you want some YouTube videos, if you want some interviews with people, if you want some articles, if you want some worksheets, if you want some checklist, all of those things are offered. So based on your learning style, you have different options that you can choose from. And I need something because the people I work with that they can take with them. They can look on their own time it could be very much on demand. And a lot of what I need to do has to be done informally, which is critical again because of their schedules. So not beyond getting into the hallway and having the conversations with the people in order to work things out, because we could solve problems in a 10-minute hallway conversation.

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Ross  

And is there a shift that you've observed between doing the learning between when you need the knowledge and apply the knowledge? So the difference of traditional we go off, we study, we learn this thing, and then hopefully, at some point, we can recall that when we need it, “Oh yeah, I remember when I did that course, that piece, that paper, I now need it,” versus, “I need to figure out how to cook this, I’ll watch a YouTube video right now because I'm cooking it today.” In that accessibility of learning, being on-demand just in time, in real-time for those things to continue when I don't even know what I want to learn yet, or I don't even know to join the dot between that's my goal. But I don't know which bits will help me achieve that goal, I want a goal of less stress, well what is that? Oh it's resilience, or it's psychological safety or these things? So I think this, I'm sure we could talk for hours on the subject of this.

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Ruth  

Well, you know what, whenever anyone comes to any one of my keynotes or any one of my workshops, or read any one of my Forbes articles, you will always see some theory to underscore what we're talking about. And there will always be actionable tips that you can implement immediately.

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Ross  

Yeah, here’s six tips, here’s what you can do right now. Here’s four that you can do right now. 

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Ruth  

That’s right.

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Ross 

Yeah, I think that is super valuable. And we can all do that for ourselves, right? Whenever we do something, turn it from, “Okay, it's the thought, I'm making some decisions about it. What am I going to do today that's going to make a difference that how can I get started?”

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Ruth  

And you only need to start with one thing. I can offer six tips, you only need to do one. You only need to do one just to get started and then you build on that momentum. So just turn today to Day 1 instead of one day.

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Ross  

So my question that I've started to ask in my podcast is around this sort of play between mental flexibility of being able to have two opposing thoughts at the same time to look for new options and this other thought of unlearning. So to not forget, but deliberately say, the environment, the evidence now allows me to make a new decision from what I believed before that proposition, that service, that piece is no longer going to serve me for tomorrow. So I don't need to continually perpetuate a sunk cost fallacy to something or whatever it might be and I deliberately unlearn it.

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And part of all of this thing, and you talked about it in some of your mindset principles of this sort of craving of learning and curiosity. And I interviewed, oh, her name has just gone from me, but her whole piece is all around curiosity, The Curiosity Index. And she talked about our curiosity peaks at age five. And I found that really interesting. And I wanted to challenge it and understand why and what can we do to actually maybe never peak our curiosity. And in our 40’s can we have a higher than we were five? And of course, at five, so many things are new, because we're doing it for the first time. We're figuring out something for the first time and as we get older, we less and less things are the first time. So my question to you is when was the last time you did something for the first time? And what was it?

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Ruth  

Well, I think the pandemic is when I had to do new things every single day, in a new way. Starting with converting all of my talks, and all of my workshops, seemingly overnight to a virtual platform. And I am known for giving engaging talks and working, like really having…

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Ross  

In a physical way, yeah.

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Ruth

Right and breaking people up into small groups, and all of a sudden, needing to learn how to do that. And all of a sudden having to be more active on social media. And so I learned how to do stories. And I learned how to do all of these things and all of these fun things on all of these virtual platforms. And also my big thing that I did for the first time was I started writing so much more. So writing for Forbes, writing for Psychology Today and writing my book The Success Factor. It all came because I needed to try something new. And why not me?

Ross  

Yeah, love it. And if you were to pick and you can have a moment, maybe it's something I can share in the notes afterwards, if it doesn't come to mind, but if you in the next 48 hours, made a decision to do something for the first time that you haven't done before, that helps you move towards a goal that you've got. This is a goal you've already got, it's already there, it's in your mind, you've been doing lots of different things, you might already have it planned. But what would be a way in which you could experiment or learn something about the progress of achieving that goal that we did, in mean you had to do something for the first time in order to learn that? What might that be that you could do in the next 48 hours for the first time?

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Ruth  

So I have a goal, to give a TED talk. And learning to, you know you're asking an academic to get their work down to 18 minutes, in an engaging way, that takes the flexing of muscles that I may not even know exist yet and do it in such an engaging way. But I think getting to that point, and delivering that captivating and inspiring talk, and then connecting with people who can get me on that round red carpet. I think that's how we do it in the next 48 hours.

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Ross  

Interesting. So finding somebody who you don't know who could connect you to the TED Talk to the red carpet and engaging them. I just had a little thought when you were saying that, that writing all of these things. And it's if I had more time, I'd have made it shorter, that kind of theory of, we have to be able to simplify, and if we can't simplify it we don't understand it.

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Ruth  

That's right.

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Ross  

I wonder if you took the average length of your Forbes articles or Psychology Today, of those things, say they're maybe I don't know, are they 500 to 600 words perhaps something like that? Would you be able to be the first person and you to get an article published on one of those that was, say 20 or 10 words only? Could you get to that point where you've done something so succinct, that will push you outside the comfort zone? The audience, all of those people that when could that be done? Do it a 10x reduction of what the normal is? So if say it's 600, could you do an article in 60 words and get it with all your key pieces in? Just be interesting to play with that.

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Ruth  

Alright, Ross, how’s this?

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Ross  

Go on.

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Ruth

I don't think anybody wakes up in the morning aiming to be average. I think people want to be successful. They have the potential, they need a plan. I've created the blueprint.

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Ross  

Yep. Yeah.

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Ruth

Did that get it down? 

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Ross  

That’s down. So you're doing each of those things that has the date, the time, the bit that this TED talk here and you put the roadmap and the blueprint. And but my encouragement to you for fun, for curiosity to have a few things in there that you've never done before.

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Ruth  

I love that, you're talking to someone who went back to school at the age of 43.

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Ross  

I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, your mind and just your honesty of your life, which is all of what we're doing is to share people's true stories, what they're going through, and how we might learn to navigate this thing called change and life in a way that brings smiles. And you've really helped me in doing that and hopefully some of our listeners too. So thank you very much, Dr. Ruth Gotian.

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Ruth  

Thank you.

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Voiceover  

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Outro

Thank you for listening to this episode of Decoding AQ. Please make sure you subscribe to your favorite podcast directory, and we'd love to hear your feedback. Please do leave a review and be sure to tune in next time for more insights from our amazing guests.

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