Podcasts

Intro

Hi, and welcome to Decoding AQ, helping you to learn the tools, mindsets, and actions to thrive in an ever-changing world.

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Ross  

Hi, and welcome to the next episode of Decoding AQ. I have a very special guest with me here today. I have Antonio Nieto Rodriguez.

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Antonio  

Hi, Ross, nice to be here with you. I love what you're doing. So a pleasure to talk to you.

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Ross  

Thank you. I was excited when I originally reached out it was because of the connections through Thinker's 50 and Marshall Goldsmith’s 100. So, I mean, this is something I've been looking forward to our conversation. And I'll cover a bit of your background. But one of the things that intrigued me most Antonio, when I read it was a World Champion in Project Management. How do you get to be a World Champion in Project Management? Tell me about that.

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Antonio  

Yeah, Ross. Well, there is no World Cup on project management, so it is purely marketing. I think the challenges I face in my career is as soon as you talk project management, it becomes very tactical thing or what a boring topic. So I worked with some people on branding, and they said well call yourself World Champion, I guess. Yeah, there is quite some achievements in what I've done. But yeah, it's purely marketing.

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Ross  

I love it. And as my background is brand and marketing, it's about creating those opportunities for conversations. And I think when you put yourself out there in that way, the authenticity to back it up, I mean, recognized by Thinker's 50, as I said before, but the award of ideas into practice, so shifting from theory and concept and academic into where the rubber hits the road into the traction. And you're also ranked number 17 in the Global Gurus Top 30 list and authored many books, I think one a couple of years ago, Lead Successful Projects. I want to dig into that a little bit as well. But essentially, your work focuses on advising senior leaders to lead transformational change. So I guess you couldn't be busier than right now, if senior leaders had a time in history to lead transformational change it's now. So tell me how did you get into that? How do you get into change of working with leaders?

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Antonio  

Well, yeah, a bit of by chance, or by bad experience, Ross. I spent 10 years in a big consulting firm. Since I started as a junior, they sent me to work in projects. My first task in a big SAP implementation project. This is 1994, I think for ExxonMobil. My first time that the project manager gave me, “Guys, can you get coffee for the team?” And I said, “Oh, my God, I'd like to be one of these guys. I want to be a project leader.” So and then I grew, I grew I grew, I became almost partner and I work all the time in projects. I realize how difficult it is to get things done, not just one project, but then I realized companies have 500 projects or 800 projects. So how the hell can you do 800 If one is already a mess, so I just was very curious about this topic.

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And, and it was my topic to become partner. My pitch was, let's build project advisory services, and everybody needs that leaders camp. And they said, “Well, nice topic. We love your passion, you clearly know about the topic, but it's a tactical topic. We don't like it. It's just very tactical, we cannot charge for giving projects. So you're fired.” And it was a shock. I was like, “I'm so passionate. I'm convinced everybody needs that.” But senior leaders don't see the value. And that was where I found my purpose to work and dedicate all my efforts on learning, understanding, sharing, and connecting projects to change and change to strategy and change to people. And that's how I've been spending 25 years of my career.

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Ross  

It's amazing, isn't it? The different perceptions people have our life is an endless journey of projects, of team or company all of these things, what they're made up of projects. And these connections cognitively, through tactical to strategic. And I can't imagine now, not thinking the structure of projects as being a strategic operation. And I think the link now to then shifting that for transformational change both reacting as well as making it happen, designing it from the beginning, rather than so you're pre-empting certain things to invoke a change that's coming. 

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What are some of the challenges that you've seen in the last, year or 18 months of radical shift? In terms of where projects and more strategic project management has come to play and has gone well for companies? Can you give me a few sort of stories or examples about that?

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Antonio  

Sure. Sure, Ross. And I think we've, despite the terrible last year that many people suffer, there is some learnings. And I think in the world of projects, there's very, very good learnings. There is in generally, I think what I've seen the last eight months is 18 months is something that I've been trying to predict for years is focus prioritization. Know what are the top priorities in your company, don't have 800 projects, transform it, that doesn't work. Choose one or two or three. 

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And thanks to the crisis, companies did extreme prioritization, they dropped by 80% to 90% of the projects. And they say, “What do we need to survive? What do we need to just get a life?” And everybody went along, everybody didn't complain that we were stopping projects, that we were putting the best people in the projects that matter most and including senior executive dedicating, not just one hour per month on a project to sponsor but the days during the week to sponsor projects.

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So I think from what can we do different going forward is keep that extreme prioritization, keep the rest of the best people in your projects and as executives spend time, spend time on them and take decisions with them, bring resources so that work, we've seen that. The other big learning Ross is that has challenged every aspect of project management is the way the COVID Vaccine was developed. It was impossible, nobody, nobody would think before COVID, that you could do it in less than 10 years. It happened in 10 months. So there were many factors that took place to make this happen. So if a vaccine can be developed in 10 months, which is a 10th of what normally we'll take, we can change anything we want in the world, in a 10th of the time. We think this is about poverty, this is about sustainability. We know, we have the formula, now the formula is clear, let's make it happen. And we will make a much better world. You can make better organizations, you can succeed with your transformation. It's there, I don't need to tell, it is there.

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Ross  

And I think what you've hit on there, because one of the concepts that you've been pioneering and things is their hierarchy of purpose and this prioritization. And it's very hard to do right, to prioritize. And the origin of decide is to cut off, what do we say no to? And one of the challenges when we have all of these projects, and we have all of these initiatives, how do we do it? How do we prioritize? And something like COVID come along, gave us that opportunity to really focus and focus in so many areas across so many industries, to just show us what is possible, as you say, 10X the kind of results and outcome in speed or impact or reach.

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Now, there's many of these prioritizations that people are passionate about. You talked about your passionate prioritization of project management being the thing. There's another pending one, that potentially is a larger challenge than COVID in terms of climate. And for many people who are really passionate about it, there's countless, you only have to flick on to Netflix and see how on the edge this is. When will this become a prioritization? That it can then rally that same kind of radical transformations that we've seen with COVID in a climate? Will it need another crisis? Or can you think of a better way in that we can think about prioritizing the most essential needs for organizations to operate in.

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Antonio  

I love this topic. And I'm not an expert, but I'm learning a lot and I know you are very, very close and passionate about this topic too and what you do with your organization. So I think unfortunately, I think this is what I think human beings should learn is that unless there's a huge crisis and we've seen how many million people we lost with COVID, we don't take action. So I would love that we can change that. I just don't know, I think maybe you know, maybe you have a view, but there is good intent, there's the COP26 now in the UK in Scotland in November, there is a lot of people behind this, Bill Gates and many people.

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And what I think is different in this case is that the new generations is driving. So there is very few people who have created more awareness around sustainability than kids. Greta has done more than the whole European Union, the more than the US. Greta, she's a kid, she's 18. So I think we need to listen.

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I recently gave a keynote around what can we learn from kids. Boyan, the guy in the Netherlands, 16-year-old clean the ocean. He didn't want to clean his swimming pool, he wanted to clean the ocean. So I think for me, it's clear the future is on the kids. We need to learn, let the kids drive. My expectations of current leaders in the world to change the world is almost zero, very few impact. The kids, if you give them voice, if you give tools, if you support them, they are going to drive change. So it's a bit radical. But I'm tired of waiting of this crisis to change. And I think maybe let's try something different. Let's just build on the kids, let them drive, let Greta and Boyan and all of these kids tell us where we need to put the money, where we need to go. And maybe it works.

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Ross  

I like that Antonio, and this idea of human society needing radical pain before we go and do something, right? The whole healthcare service is a sick care service, right? We wait till we're ill  and then we say please fix me. We don't do the things that we know we should be doing in order not to get ill. And I think that's a challenge when we come back to our individual lives, to teams, and to organizations, we might know what we need to do but we never necessarily do it until it's a really burning issue.

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I want to unpick a little bit of this thought of what is it that makes children so capable of envisaging different futures and so capable of changing mindsets or societies of things? You mentioned two very strong people there that have done it, that we can learn from, that it can be almost a pincer movement. So it's not just “Okay, let the children do it.” But how the ones that are currently in situ and in place of decision making and of all authority of budgets and where things are focused on? How can we help them be more like the children in their thinking? Don't clean my swimming pool, but clean the ocean. How can we do that? What is it inside children that lights your smile and that you get “Ah that's where it should be!” What are the things inside there that we can learn from?

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Antonio  

Well, I forgot I created a formula when I was analyzing all these kits and amazing projects, there's amazing brands in it. And I call it inspire and each letter has something but it's just in a nutshell is having that bigger vision. It's not getting stuck in the swimming pool, but the ocean and I think we are very pragmatic the older you get very pragmatic and we need to make it work. So let's keep it to scope, very narrow, and these kids don't care. And so it's very inspirational. It's very purpose-driven, it's not about them making money, I don't think it's about that. It's about creating a bigger, better world. And that's inspiring when you have a higher purpose is where people get excited and motivated.

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And the other thing I think, is one thing with United Nations sustainability goals is that we all love them. But we don't have a clue how to contribute to make successful transformation successful projects. You need to be able to first understand, touch your heart and then give me the tools, how can I contribute? If you don't do that, then nothing will happen. So how can we connect so that anybody can put a little bit of there? And this is what I miss often in transformation is, yes, we like the direction it makes sense, it's going to make us better, but how can I contribute? How can I be recognized? How can I play a space and go home and tell to my family that I'm working on this amazing project? And that misses many times and it’s a very important thing. And kids make it so simple that yeah it makes sense to everybody, we want all the kids to help not just selected people but everyone. So I would say that's a big difference where people can connect and contribute.

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Ross  

I think maybe the structures we've put around ourselves were for a particular function to create value, stakeholder value, shareholder value and often to control and to protect things. We have this whole system about protecting trademarks, IP, competitive advantage, all of these things that almost is counterintuitive to collaboration and innovation. And what I've observed with adults and as we get older, we tend to get stuck in the mud of the how. So that limits our imagination and our thinking. Whereas the children naive to the how, they just see what needs to be done, and hope that the how shows up.

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And equally, as you pointed out, there's opportunity that anyone can contribute. But the way in which you can contribute becomes real to you, and becomes easy to you to get started, rather than that entire complexity that we think we need to have every step mapped out. But yeah, it will be uncovered as we go.

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So I'm interested in terms of when you're designing projects that are in this world of uncertainty, in this world where things change on a dime, where it's so volatile, how can we be successful in our projects when we're almost doing it in this sea and world of continual and accelerated change? What are some of the practical things that we can do in that sort of environment, Antonio?

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Antonio  

Well, Ross, I think your organization is leading in this space. So I hope I can give my point of view but I know you're doing a lot on this on adaptability. I think there is different areas I'm working on. I think project management for example, every research that you see McKinsey, Bainbridge, PMI, they say 70% of projects fail. And for me, that's unacceptable. That's because project management has not evolved. We cannot…

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Ross  

It’s ridiculous, isn't it? You wouldn't bet on a project if 70% was going to fail, would you put your bet on that, your resources? I certainly wouldn't.

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Antonio  

It’s terrible. So put your money in the stock market, you might get a better return than doing a project that you almost know that it's going to fail. So this is something that upsets me really, really a lot. And it's something that I'm trying to do with reinventing project management with this book in Harvard Business Review is we need to do things different, these methods are great, but these are maybe 40 years old. And agile is great, too. But let's put them together, it’s not agile or traditionalist. All of these plus more with agility, adaptability is continuous improvement, is exponential growth, is innovation ideation.

So I believe that we have to build the right methodology or toolset that companies don't have, they have one element, they have a hammer, they have a screwdriver. But when you fix problems at home, you have a whole set of tools, and that's what we're missing. And I think that's what we need to put attention. Let's build competencies around all these great technologies and techniques and help organizations and leaders to address change better and take opportunities.

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The other big thing, I think from my perspective, I'm quite critical with projects is that we used to be, we thought that by documenting everything, you get better control. So if I come to a meeting around my project, I'll bring you 200 pages. And you'd say, “Well, you are in control, because you have 200 pages about your project.” And we know that's not true, you can have one page and you can be really on top of your project.

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So it's about value is for me, project management needs to focus more from deliverables and artifacts who can call something an artifact. This is what methodologies today say, who knows what an artifact to value impact. And we need to focus when you have a focus on how can we create impact quickly, you move away from the tactical, you move away from the concrete things, and you can be much more agile when you focus and you can adapt. When you have a focus on benefits, on impact, on value creation and that's what I'm trying to push leaders to think about and the methodologies around it too.

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Ross  

And I think from speaking about our organization, it's a tough gig to do that, these systems that we have in place that generally are looking at activities, and not necessarily the outcome and result because activities have more control of whether we can do it or not. “Ah, I did that activity well done.” “Antonio, you said that I do that activity, I did it.” The reason I was doing that activity was for this result, but I don't want to be responsible for whether I get the result or not. How are we responsible for whether I ticked what I said I was going to do?

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And so to be brave enough and vulnerable enough that the result and outcome is what really matters not the activity is hard, it's really, really hard. Even in an entrepreneurial business where we can make our own decisions and we can champion that. We haven't got this playbook of debt, of process, or debt of technical ways we were doing things. And we're reinventing our operating system for the change to be more about outcome and result. And I think that's what entrepreneurs have done very well throughout history is that they get the result and value from the outcome, the noise and activity from just creating stuff to say, “Here's how my page 198 and my 200 report look.”

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So I think this shift that you talk about of particularly around transformational change, it's so ingrained of the operating systems we have of how leaders have been valuable and successful so far, to break that connection is a deep-rooted one. And what I've observed and seen is the odd Maverick, the odd person that can show a new way of doing something that can ripple out, that's where all change comes from, the unreasonable person to see something that they want to want to shift.

And I want to dig in a little bit to this challenge between theory and you've got a lot of history in academic and writing. And then the real world of businesses, of lives, of jobs and roles. How can we accelerate and close that gap between theories and ideas and experiments? And then getting them going inside organizations? What are the tips or things that you can share with us to try and do more of that, because I think there's a huge opportunity for us if we can do it?

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Antonio  

Sure. And maybe just quickly, going back on what you were saying because it resonated too much about that kind of focus on empowering and getting results. I often tell the project communities that it’s like you're running a football team, and you don't care about results, you're not accountable of the results of the team, or you have an orchestra, and you have all the elements there, every ticks has been there, but they don't play well. So I think this is what really resonates to me on what you were talking just going backward on that topic.

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We need to be able to be accountable of the results, if you're leading a football team, or it's about the results is yeah, you might change how you play, you might change the player, but it's about the results. And so far, for many years. We didn't care about the results. And it's time to take accountability on that too. But on the academic part, I think I just made so many. And this is my personal perspective. But how many of the academic concepts don't work in reality, I just amazed that there are very few, at least in the world where I work is just okay, they give you ideas, but I think it's up to leaders to connect the dots and make them work. You cannot take academic concepts and apply them by the book, that will never work.

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And I think we've been doing that often, you hear academics, proposing things that don't work. And I give you a concrete example in project management or prioritization of projects. They say, “Well, each project needs to have a business case and you wait every weekend.” Yeah, in theory, it makes sense. So you will measure things together. But in practice it’s impossible. If you have 800 projects, it would take you eight years just to calculate business cases.

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So we need something more pragmatic. So I would recommend I'd look at academic because there is for search of ideas, but the only person who can make something work is you, your team, coaching like you do, to get people learn and apply it itself. So I think this is something that we need to change. And I hope people listen to it, be courageous enough to try their own things, develop their own methods, and approaches and guidelines and values and principles because that's what in the end really makes the difference.

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Ross  

And one of the things I've again, just speaking from my own experience, the challenges of when we talk about results and outcomes, knowing which ones are the right ones to be measuring. I say we can go “Oh yeah, that's easy to measure. So I want to be measured by that one.” Whereas I forget who said it but not all things that can be counted count, not all and the opposite, whichever that is. And one of the real issues many businesses face is, in doing the projects, in assessing and prioritizing and looking for outcomes and results is when it's unknown, when we're imagining things, when we want to step away from maybe the traditional things that have been counted as the outcome of result, finance or a promotion, or sales or reach or these things, to think more holistically about the result, what's the result of the effect on the planet, on next generations, on animals on all of these things.

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And, for me, that stayed for many years in this silo, of social responsibility. And after we've done some stuff, then we'll go and repair what we've messed up. Rather than thinking “No, doing it right in the first place, is the best way of running things.” And so I'm interested when you think about prioritizing yourself, we reached out, you must have countless opportunities to do interviews, talks, podcasts, all sorts of things. How do people really prioritize what they do and spend their time on? And what is the best way that maybe how do you do it? Is it about your values or mindset or curiosity? How do you prioritize your time? And then what can we learn from that to scale up to teams and organizations that might be really effective?

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Antonio  

It's a great question. And I'm not a guru, or maybe the best person on talking about this topic, because I get very easily distracted. And I love like, you contact me, and yes, I love it. I love what you're doing. Let's chat. So distract you a bit, but then it leads to something else. So but my whole kind of philosophy that people talk about their passion. What I found for me, what's more important is your purpose. So purpose helps, it gives you a broader scope of what you can do. And I'm surprised very few people talk about purpose, finding your purpose is much stronger than just finding your passion. Passion can be more a hobby, and I think it's important, but your purpose is like you have a mission.

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My mission was, I want to understand projects, I want to make sure that senior leaders understand and they have a tool to make their dreams a reality, to make a better world. So for me, what drives my agenda and my time is how activities that will help me to push my purpose and talking to you, for sure, I will learn something and we'll connect and you never know. So it tells me a lot when it doesn't meet my purpose. I just don't do it. If it's part of that vision and connection and sharing that higher intention for a better world, I love it. So I would recommend for people to finding your passion is important. But what's your purpose, it can be a small purpose, you can just provide to your family, but that's strong that tells you already to prioritize. If it doesn't provide to your family, then you know that just try not to do it.

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And the other thing I think is important is be ready to stop things. I think like any organization, we are very difficult in stopping things. You put an emotion or content into everything we do. And it's hard to say, “Well, I failed, like let's stop it, let's be radical.” And I think that personally, also by organizational is we don't manage to stop things and say, “It’s not the right time. I need to prioritize on something else.” If you say yes to everything, that's another killer. So be able to say “Wait for the next two, three weeks, I cannot work on that. And I'll come back to you later on.” So parking things, stopping things. It's very, very important for me at least to achieve what I want. But for my purpose in your own life, it has made everything quite easier for my time to be more effective for or better use.

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Ross  

And we're more than just these machines to be effective. As you said, that the purpose gives us this playground to be curious, to be open minded, to let opportunities show up in alignment and flow without us being completely distracted through many things. But we've got our lane and if our lane is our purpose that gives us that freedom to go and explore and go and create. And I like that idea. I think that, again certainly resonates with me, Antonio to think of it in that way. And you know the ability to say no is an adaption for us. Because I was certainly brought up that no was something that was rude, it was a bad thing. And when you go through growing up, no was something almost like being told off. You go through the phase where as a parent, all you end up saying is no all the time.

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And so how much of that sticks with us to be afraid to say no, when we've started a project, and we're vested in it, we've got this sunk cost fallacy of an idea or a project or something that's been going to think that no is a rude thing or a bad thing. And failure only happens when we give up after many times, and it's this balance between grit of passion and perseverance and being able to say, “No, I'm going to stop and turn around.” And I remember a great book, it was a Seth Godin one and it was called The Dip. And it was the difference between a cul-de-sac and a dip that you do come out to the other end and only hindsight tells you the difference of those things.

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And so I'm just fascinated by the human behavior and the neuroscience of how we make decisions, and how we can shift them and give ourselves permission to think differently tomorrow. So I might have said yes today to something but saying no tomorrow is that, “Oh I feel bad about it. I don't want to do it, I don't want to say to Antonio, I said we’d follow up and call them and I don't want to do it anymore. Do I? Am I a bad person? Well I started that project,” to reframe that and rethink and get good and elegant and graceful at saying no. I know that to me is one of the greatest opportunities for us in changing adaption is to be able to change our relationship with no. And that that scene is just a beautiful thing to be doing rather than this negative, it ends up with a red face and a horrible, horrible sense. I wonder what your thoughts are on that?

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Antonio  

I love it. I was a big prisoner of that feeling of saying no. And like, it's exactly like you, Ross. And then you do know because you're afraid that people will not like you and that you will upset. And if I knew that I would have used to know much more. And you realize, I think you realize that people appreciate that. Appreciate when you say “Listen, I'm too busy, I'll take care but come back to me in a month.” And I think this is what people are looking for honesty and not just saying yes, and yes but it makes you stronger.

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I think I realized that even to your boss, you can say “Boss, listen is not the right time or better do it.” So I think we also need to be ready to do confront leaders and CEO’s and say, “Listen, the way the changes to the project, we can do that but we’re just going to screw the whole project, so up to you but I cannot do that. I recommend not to do it.” So I think learning to speak up and learn to be nice, like you put it nicely confrontational is such an important skill that we were born with that no, never say no. And I totally agree with what you said. It changed your life.

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Ross  

Yeah, change. And in improv, we're taught “Yes And,” to accept something, say yes and add an and. And I think some of these mental paradoxes that we live in, this complexity of being able to choose when to apply a thought or a behavior. You know that because we say “Oh, yes, no,” it doesn't mean we say no every time. But just because we do “Yes And” doesn't mean to say we do it every time. And for me this adaptability intelligence is to continually reflect and evaluate circumstance and new information, and be able to make an informed choice and decision of what to do next.

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And so that we can go into uncertainty with a smile, rather than trepidation, rather than fear. And because the more we live, and the more we go forward, the more uncertainty there's going to be, especially in an exponential world. So getting comfortable with that, I think is a another very valuable skill we talk about resilience and the ability to bounce back and all of these things. In reality, this sort of movement that we all have to navigate change is one that we've got to rapidly get good at, and reimagine those things.

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If people want to learn more about your work, all of the different books that you've written on, if someone wanted to start to get to understand a little bit more of your thinking and some of your work, which one would you recommend first? Where should they start and why?

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Antonio  

And let me go back again with what you're saying. Because it just, you're connecting very well with what I think about getting used to change is such an urgency. I think that people who were used to change a few years ago, maybe it would be 10% of the population, maybe 5%. And also in organizations and you most of the people have been working on a structure way, with job descriptions, I claim that job descriptions are dead. And job descriptions give you a structure, it gives you perspective, it’s like a floor that you slowly and suddenly that's gone. So I'm very worried that 90% of the workers, they are not prepared for change and are human being by nature, we need security to perform and now you're removing the security and safety to ask us to perform.

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So I love what you're talking. I just couldn't agree more that if there's something we need to teach people is to be able to live in uncertainty. And to know that you have a project today that will last six months. And we don't know what's going to happen in six months. But there will be something for you. And I think this is where I am, I'm just trying to provide some guidance on these two people that “Yeah, it's not going to be easy,” it’s one of the biggest, I think one of the biggest changes in human behavior for centuries that we're experiencing right now. And so I love what you're trying to do and in your organization is getting people used to change and thriving change. 

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Ross  

Yeah, very much so. I mean and it isn't, “Oh, I've got that, now I'm done.” “Oh I went to the course, I did that piece, cool.” Is the life we're now living the world we're now living in, I do want to give our listeners the opportunity to, they're excited, they want to learn more about you, there's so much content out there. From you, where would you recommend they start? Which book? Which piece? Which area do you think would be a great on-ramp to learn more about your mindset, your thinking, your teachings and work, Antonio?

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Antonio  

Well, I like my first book was The Focused Organization, I realized that focused organizations where there's clarity on the top are happier companies. People are happy to work in a company where people know what's the strategy, what are the one or two things they need to do, even if you work for Ryanair, where you don't really care about the customers, it's about efficiency. People are happy to work because they know that it's about something very clear.

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So and then it translates to yourself, how can you become more focused, knowing that nature tends to unfocus us? So that was a good start. And I would recommend my new book with Harvard is trying to reinvent project manage, make it accessible for everybody. It's coming out in September, I think. But it's a very simple hands-on senior lead project manager, so better in the projects. So for that, we need to wait a little bit. But yeah, I would recommend to you, of course, you will see something new in each of my books. But this one, I really work hard with Harvard to do something that is practical and an actual so that we can use it right now.

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Ross  

I think that's lovely. And the fact that the first one, The Focused Organization, doing something for the first time, it's hard. And a book, anyone who's done a book or in a project or those sorts of things. The first one's hard, so it's always gonna have a special relationship. And it's like all artwork, it's never complete, it's just abandoned. At some point we have to go, “That's got to get out, we've got to ship it.” And I look forward to your book in September of reimagining project management, and I think many organizations will benefit and continue to benefit from your work. 

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I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today, Antonio, from a selfish perspective, it's why I started the podcast to meet great people, have amazing conversations and to learn about the thinking and just have this conversational jazz is my happy place. So I really want to thank you for indulging me in that. And I hope some of our listeners have gained some insights, got some questions and maybe can move forward to a tomorrow where the uncertainty excites them. Not the uncertainty scares them. So thank you.

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Antonio  

I love it. Thank you, Ross. I truly enjoy the conversation. I love these type of sessions where you can go forever and I'm sure will not get bored. So thank you for the opportunity.

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Ross  

Pleasure.

Voiceover  

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Outro

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