Podcasts

Intro

Hi, and welcome to Decoding AQ, helping you to learn the tools, mindsets, and actions to thrive in an ever-changing world.

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Ross  

Hi, everybody, and welcome to our next episode of Decoding AQ. Today, I've got a good friend of mine Lars Hyland with me. And he has almost three decades of experience in the design and implementation of large-scale learning programs. For some of the largest brands on the planet, you were also head of consulting at Epic when they won the E-Learning Company of the Year. And you now sit as the Chief Learning Officer Totara, which is an open learning technology platform. So I'm really looking forward to digging into our conversation together. So welcome, Lars.

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Lars  

Thank you. lovely to be here.

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Ross  

So first question. Have you always lived in Brighton?

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Lars  

Good question. No, you might guess from the name. It has a Scandinavian built to it. And I was born in Copenhagen, in Denmark. But quickly, as you can tell from my accent, moved to London and grew up in South London. So it's been a bit long time there and then studied up north Manchester, York, did a masters up there, and then got my first job, and actually chose this what’s now is a much more mainstream industry than it was back then. As you can imagine, a context of interactive media, in its general sense was very new and novel, and certainly not free internet. So I got my first job down on the south coast working for a company that is now no longer around called Future Media, which was one of the pioneers actually in interactive video, which was these big, 12-inch discs where you could do it as sort of interactive, random access videos, I could geek out on that quite a lot. But at the end of the day, we were doing some quite interesting things back then. In terms of genuine simulations, it was hard work, it was good quality video, interesting interaction, and thick, thin colors on your PC. So that was how it was. 

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Ross  

Very cool.

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Lars  

But over that time, we've we've flopped that, haven't we, for everything to be fully connected online, great broad brand and a really good media experience.

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Ross  

I guess it's interesting that you can plot various things over those nearly three decades, as I say, of where some things have stayed the same. And some things have changed, certain principles about the methodology or thinking of learning and applying knowledge and sharing knowledge to then the realms of possibility that has happened through internet and connectivity and things. From a sense of your career through each of those journeys, places, moments that you worked in, what's kind of shaped some of that career in your thinking, what are maybe some of the highlights of experiences that have evolved the way you think? 

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Lars  

Well, I've always had a strong interest in technology have done since the early days, in fact, that masters I did was in music technology. So it was a bit of a matchup between an earlier degree of information technology and business, how does it apply in a workplace and then having a crack at the music side of things, which deep dive even more into how technology impacts particular domains, such as music for example. And there, if you look at it, music is a massive, early adopter of technology. 

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You know, the first universal network was something called Music, well I've got the name of it now, Music. It was a MIDI, basically the digital interface that connected up all the synthesizers and samplers and things that now we just take for granted. In fact, we take it even further for granted because we can do all of these things on our phone or iPad. And it's much more than it was back in back in the 80’s. And the 90’s when it sort of really started to take hold culturally. 

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So but I like digression but what I was doing at back then was trying to use novel technology with coding, interesting, new ways to make sounds and control sound, but then also to help musicians use it. And I realized I was the only one putting help on my programs. I was the only one really interested in the user interface as well to make it really straightforward. And so it got me more and more interested in how computers can help you learn and more effectively, and not just learn but do things more effectively. 

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So I had this hypothesis or view but that back then, and it's only just been relatively recently that this has started to become real is that computers were things that were useful things, but they're often quite complicated and difficult to use, and that you had to go elsewhere. Find out how to learn it, to then go back and do it. And so there's a sort of simplistic way of looking at a lot of training that people still do is they are abstracted away from their workplace, and then they, and then they're asked to come back into the workplace and apply that new knowledge and skills. And the fact that's often very challenging, and not that effective way of doing it.

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So back then I, when is this, this is 1990 realized that what if I could turn that around? What if I could create a learning environment like an interactive learning environment in which you could actually do these complicated things or more relatively complicated things like creating these amazing sounds in software, which was novel back then. So that was my that was what I did my thesis on was that, and then was past facing it, which I managed to do in a fantastic technology called HyperCard, which was an Apple product back then, which was a forefather really of democratizing access to creating interactive media. So it was ahead of its time, but became very, very popular, in fact, and then for some unknown reason disappeared. Probably a decade or 15 years ago. 

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But I'm telling that story because that notion of being able to create a rich learning environment in which you can perform your role and job effectively. So you've got this support network around you, that actively supports you is really now only becoming a reality, isn't it, with the technologies that we have. So it's taken that length's time, a lot of evolution and change in technology, and to a lesser extent, a change to the way people understand how we learn, and how we do things in our job and how we behave, particularly in the workplace, and also in education. So it's been a long journey, but it's very exciting for the next few years or so, I think.

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Ross  

Every moment that you live is the most exciting moment to be alive. Because of you know, we share this kind of passion for future and for technology, and the opportunities of where that can make things easier and better. It's getting that way, it’s democratizing it from where it was, like you said, quite technically challenging, to use that tool to create what you wanted to create. But now the ability for everyone to be a content creator, just about every medium has opened up now from a challenge of maybe creation to one of filtering and curation, where we're almost overwhelmed from too much. 

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And I'm interested to understand from your perspective of, with all of these different technologies that have come and gone and more use them less use them, what's been some of the fundamentals of learning, particularly in E-learning, and you know, these immersive technologies that has stayed true throughout all of those periods of, “Oh, there's this software, or this technology or this platform,” what are the sort of core principles that you've always felt back on, about how people learn or the behaviors or things like that, that we can learn from you?

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Lars  

Yeah, indeed, one of them is fairly simple, but difficult, which is that in any attempts to support a large group of people, typically with a new set of knowledge or skills and behaviors that you want to encourage is that the technology there is there as a support to help with scalable access to that and to understand how people are progressing with that, that process. And you've got a plethora, an amazing choice now of different types of media that you can use, interactive or otherwise, making those choices as to what you use needs to be secondary to the core, extinct descriptions and the core content is being conveyed.

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And it's not just content, it's the activities that you're asking people to do the sequence in which they do them, how they interact with others, as part of their group, how that interfaces with the actual real world workplace that they're in. And that means you've got more and more variables that you can't control as a result, but you got to be mindful of that, if you're really interested in the end, outputs being effective and actually supporting these people to make that journey, effectively. 

So there's a risk that you get too fixated on the technology, because you can, at the expense of that, and there's plenty of the unfortunate story of projects that have failed, where you've had great investments made in using these things, and they fall to the side because they list their fundamental points around it. Often some of the most effective one of learning, solutions are the ones where you genuinely spent time understanding what people are currently doing, and how they're going to move, how you want them to move to a new way of doing things. 

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And it can be quite simple solutions, in fact. They may not even be a training solution, it may be just a switch in the tools they use, or their or the people that they interact with, or we're just removing barriers. So that performance support mentality, and that performance consulting which is now a more of a thing, it was always a thing, performance support was always a thing, relating everything I was doing back in the early 80’s some really strong proponents of that. And they're still there but it's taken a long time, I think for that thinking to become more…

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Ross  

Expected.

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Lars  

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

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Ross  

I think one of the challenges I'm seeing a lot, and it's, it's always been there, this sort of issue around skilling, training, skilling, learning, where the stats are pretty shocking in terms of how many actually do it, you can provide it, you can have great technology, you can have great content, but then we're in the low percentages of those not only get it “Oh I'm excited, I’ll sign up,” but follow it through and not only follow it through, get the outcome at the other end, that you're wanting the performance gain, the new bit of knowledge, the new way of thinking is that that sort of gap between those that are trying to design, prepare, provide and implement, and those that are going through it and on it, there's always this challenge of some sort of disconnect of the follow through. 

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And I don't think we've got this right yet. And it's a huge opportunity for transformation because a lot of our whole education market has stayed very similar for a long time. And I'm critically challenged by a lot of companies that are saying, well, this works in this little isolation in this pilot in this little bit where there's a bit of energy or a champion behind it. 

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How have you managed or what kind of things did you implement for companies? Because I mean, you worked with Nestle, Deutsche Bank, Vodafone, huge organizations rolling out big programs of learning. How did you overcome some of those challenges of them actually doing it? And following through and really engaging? What were some of the successes that you've done?

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Lars  

Well, I think a lot of it is driven by a business imperative, isn't it? And so there's a significant change. So I mean, back in the deepest of time I was involved in projects that was about the merger between Royal Bank of Scotland and then NatWest, for example, and that's an interesting journey they've been on subsequently, isn't it? So they merged now became Royal Bank of Scotland, and then 2008 happened, and then you know, now they're reverting back to their NatWest brand, interestingly. 

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So that's a big cycle that they've been through. But marrying a merger, for example, is one where you see a need to bring some commonality of understanding amongst disparate audiences, they've got different systems in place perhaps, or maybe you're replacing one with with another. And that's been a common driver, because you've got everyone involved across a large organization, it can be hundreds of thousands of people if they're that sort of size and internationally spread. 

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And so the only way you can facilitate that is through using learning technology to present as best you can, what the new ways of working are going to be to maybe simulate those give people practice in safe ways, so that when they, when all of these systems are turned on and become live that you're not lost, you know which buttons to push the simplest level, but you also know why pushing those buttons at the right sort of times if it's unfamiliar to you. 

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So a lot of big projects were predicated on big business changes like that. So, and there's and it pushes back then, was pushing organizations to sort of take up like, a risk on what was fairly novel new. Innovative, bleeding edge, almost that type of technology and approach to doing it. Now, that's much more sort of easy and mainstream so being able to lead teams around the world and many professionals inside organizations have much more capability to be able to support those types of change. So and the main critical thing to keep in mind is not seeing this as abstract training that people need to do away from their role in their job, but in it's actually needs to be knitted in to their everyday work experience. 

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So you have a combination of formal learning opportunities, like a backbone almost, which is then weighted with informal learning opportunities, because we know that more about the learning process now than we did before, I say that I mean, it becomes more mainstream understood how learning operates is that we're always doing it all the time, it's about being able to nudge and support and people in the right directions at a faster pace. And they would be otherwise using technology, using the right types of content, connecting people to the right people at the right time. And that's what you need to be thinking about is a much more holistic design approach than ever before.

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Ross  

I like that concept of getting it to the people at the right time, in the right context. And you talked there about often it's driven by a business context, it might be a burning ambition or a burning platform that then will drive this change, merger and acquisition, a shift in the marketplace. And so if we add now this speed of things happening, that technology disruption, all coming from lots of places is that there's almost this urgent need to reskill a workforce to function in different environments. We've all had a global experiment of what remote working feels like and looks like. And we've rallied to that. We've adapted to it, we've adapted our thinking adapted our systems, and it's another shared passion of ours in terms of adaptability that not only the human side, but also the platforms and systems and things that are adaptable. And we always used to, I remember in lots of projects, it was all about future-proofing or flexibility or these kinds of words.

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And I'm interested to that, what have you seen the balance between those more process technical led learning programs? And has there been an emerging more around some of the soft skills of humans, to help them through that process of uncertainty, of well being, of change, of their mental health, rather than just, “Here's a new software we're using, it needs to be deployed,” but not necessarily understanding the human side that, hey, it was part of who you were, that you knew that and now you've got to be vulnerable are we supporting you going through that transition? Do you see that happening? If not happening when might you see it happen? Or you don't think it is happening? So all of that kind of area of complexity?

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Lars  

Sure so what you're indicating us is, is that in the past, and actually still goes on today is that we probably take a simplistic approach to how we design training and learning, I use the word training because in a broader context, because a lot of organizations around the world and globally and I totally have, we have a very global view of this happening. What is it now? Yes. 1600 organizations using our platform around the world, we get quite an interesting influx of feedback, on how people do actually use a platform of our nature to deliver these things. But we need them…

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Ross  

Quick point there, Lars. So you've got 1600 organizations on the platform and is it around 20 million users actively using the platform for whether it's engagement, performance or learning. So you've got a huge wealth of interactive data that you're building there of how companies are dealing with this challenge. So this is not just opinion, I really want people to understand that you've got access to such great information and data to base your views on.

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Lars  

Yeah. So I mean, that's almost federated in because our model of how we serve customers is through our partner network, we have a global partner network. And those experts use our platform to deliver localized solutions, ie ones that are really tailored to meet the specific needs of each organization or industry sector or region. 

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And I think that's important, because back to your question, which is about the learning, unpacking learning into just the technical component of the knowledge or the process steps, or the describing the behaviors that you want people to have, this accounts, the emotional impact, the input that's required to effect of lasting change, and not just that, but you need to practice it, you don't just have one hit, and expect people to change doesn't work like that. 

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So the learning experience, for it to be truly effective, needs to be considering, yes, all of the content aspects of things, so that people understand things conceptually, and then understand the steps they can take. And then they can practice them. And then they need to be able to reflect on that, and then be able to practice again, and just in a slightly different live context. And it's then you start to see patterns shift, habits change, and behaviors start to be embedded. 

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So it's a combination of those things. And we recognize that more fully now that my perspective at Patriot is that you can't see it as just learning, especially in the workplace context is not just about learning and training people, it's actually also about understanding how engaged people are in their own workplace. And that's a factor of the culture that they're in, the nature of how clear the alignment is with the organization's purpose, the main purpose, and then the individual's sense of purpose around that right.

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And then the mechanisms that they have to provide feedback. So 280 or 360 feedback, so that people understand how they're performing. Where can they improve? Where are their strengths? How can they really find the right ways to perform at their best? And then how do we collectively as a support function, when I say that to sort of wider HR function, but the management community as well inside our organization? How do you support people to do their jobs as well as they can? And often, the answer isn't getting in the way. But we often do get in the way, it's actually getting out of the way. And getting out of the way is about thinking carefully about that workplace experience. And what are the tools are they using, can they find the support they need both in terms of learning people.

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Ross  

So in this concept of learning cultures, eternal learning, rather than you go and you get educated, and then you work till you retire from what you were educated before with an odd bit of top up here and there to continue professional development, but really your learnings done when you're young, and the rest of it is then work experience, right? And you're getting real-life experience. 

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We don't necessarily think of that as much historically as learning to now where we're facing career portfolios, people diverging from industries, roles, all sorts of things that we're we're reigniting career paths and career opportunities that never would have been imagined before. And in a world where we're going to be facing life extinction so we're going to be living healthier and longer. 

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The age at which we're valuable is going to increase and therefore we are going to need to learn more as we go on. And so this kind of situation of organizations, ensuring employee ability of their workforces for wherever they go to navigate change is a really important concept. And I'd like you to think about two stories of experiences where you've worked with organizations who, whatever the context of change is are putting training in putting things in, one that worked really well, and a couple of the highlights of why it worked well. 

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And then one, or maybe that was epic fail, they tried to do something and they hit a roadblock or something happened that the listeners can use because I found stories are super helpful, you can talk about contexts theories platforms technology, till it becomes real of it was this team, this is what they were facing. And this is what went wrong, or this is what went right, that we can then start to apply some thought process in that. So, where have you seen someone doing a training program well and where have you been involved in something that had an epic fail?

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Lars  

Well, I’ve got a few examples of both, I think, over the years that have cumulated up. And I think, one that would that was an early example, we're a mid example, I think with we did things right, collectively, we did things right. This was actually for the Sky, who are the media company based on the UK. We were working with the ones out of the UK, and essentially, there was some changes in process that need to be communicated out through their customer service teams. 

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So traditionally, what would you do? Well, you'd package up complaining, deliver it to them, and you would pull them off the phones and get them through the training, and then they'd come back. So what we did was not that, at least not that in isolation, they were quite brave at the time, I'd say, in taking the advice that what we should be doing is really digging into providing support. So building some learning opportunities, bringing it close to their everyday work experiences simulating it as close as you can. 

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Yes, you do need to take people away from live customers. But you think about how you reintroduce them, and give them time and space to be able to do that well. But then also do a control group, which a lot of organizations are worried about that? Because that's sort of this thought of as well, that means some people aren't getting the training that we've spent all this money designing. But actually doing that meant it revealed, what difference did we were making to the performance of those individuals who weren't getting the training.

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So it was done as a like an a big AB test, if you like, in a short window of time, because of course, ultimately, having proved that the learning was making a positive difference, then, of course, there's other people do get it eventually. But designing the project or the implementation to take that into consideration is something that I strongly recommend, it's always recommended, not always taken up, because of that fear factor perhaps, or an unfounded sort of pressure of time by project. Now that went on and saved, I mean, it saved money in terms of its implementation. But it also demonstrated that Customer Success scores were improved the sales were improved, as they related to that as well. That errors, all of those metrics, business metrics actually moved. And you could actually see that because you could spot the difference between the two. We went on to win some awards, that was great for the team as well. But the main thing is it made that business difference and it was provable.

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Ross  

Good point in terms of, we all have to feed up the chain, whether that's to the end customer or to board, or wherever the impact of whatever resources we've been utilizing, financial time or otherwise. And having that clarity, by the courage to split and do a test. Like you say, it's fairly simple, fairly obvious, but takes bravery, to just say, for a while, we're not going to train these people. But we will later if it works, if it figures out. And I think that ability now to get rapid feedback of impact. It also means you know the opportunities for doing that are wider, it is not going to take a long time now to get feedback of what's going on and what's being impacted because everything's so plugged in and integrated now, right? We measure just about everything

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Lars  

Yeah we do and comes with a health warning, doesn't it? You need to be really clear about the questions you are asking and the data that you're looking to measure. You focus on the metrics that matter I think is the key shape but it's sort of true. But how do they matter? Important otherwise you can get swamped in data that actually can be distracting quite.

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Ross  

And you can search for the data to prove what you want, rather than a true experiment is you have a hypothesis. And you know, you're looking for the answer not to justify what you've done. And so that setup is equally important that it's not only the right metrics, but that you're open to what the data comes back with. 

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To do that if it didn't provide it, well, that's a great win, so that you're not rolling it out to others, and you can redesign your training or your implementation, your interventions that you're doing, if we flipped to an epic fail, if something went wrong, and why it went wrong, a bit of a story there, you don't necessarily have to name names of companies or bits. But give us a story there that might be very helpful and maybe contextually relevant to what we're facing right now have such changed circumstances?

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Lars  

Well sort of genericized I think the story because it's sort of happened that different times over the years, and just most recently, been seen. Not necessarily amongst actually our total community, but for reasons I can explain. But essentially, some organizations have not considered how they implement, how the end implementation of the program of learning that they want to roll out. And they haven't done the work to understand where people's minds are, collectively. So the culture, they misunderstood the culture, they've misunderstood the management themes, or the team leads sort of alignment with supporting initiatives. So, there's been a lot of investment made in building a great program of learning. And you get tumbleweed situations where you launch it, you just do it on a platform and in you expect people to come.

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Ross  

Here's the login go for your boots. And that's job done.

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