Podcasts

Episode 29- Decoding AQ with Ross Thornley Feat. Ashley Bugge - Life-changing loss, and how to move forward

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Intro

Hi, and welcome to Decoding AQ, helping you to learn the tools, mindsets, and actions to thrive in an ever-changing world.

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Ross  

Hi, and welcome to our next edition of Decoding AQ. I've got with me Ashley Bugge and she's a best selling author, speaker, and something really excited me was an explorer. And you went from as you describe living your dream life in Hawaii to unexpectedly becoming a military widow. And then, a young age at 34. And one of the things I think that attracted me to reach out in the beginning, Ashley was just some of your heartfelt stories that you're sharing online, really resonated in how you turned this very tragic experience into something that was enlightening for you and your family, and maybe many others. So thank you for joining us.

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Ashley  

Well. Thanks for having me. Ross. I'm excited to talk to you. 

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Ross  

So yeah, just give me a little bit more and the listeners a bit about that background, and perhaps some of your journey just to start us off.

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Ashley  

Yeah. So my husband, Brian, and I were married in 2013. We dated when I was 20. And he was 21. Honestly, just dated a summer. And then he was kind of like, head first head over heels. Like let's get married, let's join the military, we'll get married, we'll have kids, we'll travel the world will live at the coast. And we'll just live this dream life. And while it was like, I think you're the person for me, it was also like, I'm 20 years old and no way, like get out of here, I don't want to be married at 20 years old. Like I don't even know what I want for dinner tonight. I'm not ready to get married or have kids or any of that. 

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So we went our separate ways for eight years, and then lived completely separate lives, we’re still mutual friends. So we still kind of, we never talked but kind of kept tabs on one another, I guess you could say. And then eventually just found our way back to one another through a phone call. And from the very first phone call in January 2013. It was just, you're still the exact same person that I knew I loved back then. And we're older, we’re wiser, this is the good, this is the time, this is the right person now is the right time. And so we were married, just 10 months after that we were married at the Oregon coast here in the States. And from that moment on, we just lived this incredibly beautiful life together, we traveled the world together, get we basically did everything that he said we were gonna do when we were just twenty years old.

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Ross  

Your bucket list.

Ashley  

Yeah, and now here we are almost 30. Each of us had done a lot of traveling prior to that, we both learned to sail, we had both done a lot of exploration and had really cool opportunities presented to us that we took advantage of. But then when we came together, we were just unstoppable. Any idea that he had or that I had, there was never, we both had full time careers. We both had all these things going on. But there was never a moment of “You probably shouldn't do that because or we can't do that because”, or it was never, like, “That's not gonna work.” It was “If that's what you want to do, okay, let's figure out a way to make that work together.” He was in the military. So he had, he was deployed often, he had to travel a lot for work. I worked full time, I was in school full time. But we still just knew like, this is our one life, our one chance to do this. And so I think that really was what just really built us up as this couple, we just had the confidence to tackle anything.

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Ross  

What a gift to find that moment for both of you to lean in, to live together. And the, in all the people I speak to, the relevance and context. Those are just choices, right? To choose to behave like that, to think like that, to do it and to be in flow with one another. A great opportunity and a great experience.

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Ashley  

Yeah, and just so it just instills this confidence in you of just, there's nothing that I can't do, like, if I want to do this, you're right. All I have to do is just go do it. Find a way to do it and then to have a partner who felt the exact same way and not only felt the same way but pushed you and encouraged you and found ways to help you, establish that or make it happen. It was just incredible. And then we brought kids into the mix through all of that. We had our daughter in 2014. So actually, personal story when we got married on a Sunday, in 2013, Brian deployed Friday, so five days later on a six-month submarine tour, so he was under the ocean for six months. And that was on a Friday on Monday. So three days after he left, and we said our goodbye for the next six months, I found out I was pregnant with our daughter, Isabel. 

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Ross  

Wow. Talk about adaptability, in terms of going from this moments of huge emotional, physical everything journey of two people going through life to then being separated at various moments. 

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Ashley  

Yeah. 

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Ross  

That, “Oh, how do I figure out what I do now and how I function, who and what do I talk to?” and all of those things. And then that news, a life-changing event, for sure.

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Ashley  

Yeah. Exactly, it was a lot. And then knowing I was gonna go through this pregnancy without my husband there, without being even able to talk to him, we'd go a full month without even an email to each other. So I was really kind of in it on my own with that. And then he came home, and here I am six months pregnant. And it was just really, it was just, I don't know, with him by my side, there literally just was nothing that I didn't feel like I was capable. It doesn't mean it wasn't hard. It doesn't mean I wish things were different, or that our circumstances were easier or the grass is always greener on the other side, sometimes I wish like…

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Ross  

I got a question Ashley, at that time if you can cast your mind back to, you said goodbye five days after being newlyweds. For six months that you go “Okay, I'm getting my head around that.” And then find out you're pregnant, what was your life like in terms of your thinking? Because what I want to bring this as context is you, we all set something up of what we think how future is going to be like, and then stuff changes. 

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We might expect it, you married somebody in the military, so you expect them to go away. But then when it happens, and it sort of, often these things come at the same time as other parts that then change the entire feeling. Did you put things on pause, hunker in and hunker down for your man to return for Brian to come back? Did you change what you do? What was it like in that kind of six month period of how you were thinking and what you were doing from the life of before? 

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Ashley  

Yeah. That's a really good question. So for me, there's not I mean up until we get to this part of the story, there's not really much that brings me down, there's not much that I know I can't get through, there's not much that I'm willing to like, let deter me. I'm super stubborn, super hard-headed. So and I'm very goal-oriented. So once I get something in my head, it's like, it doesn't matter how I get there. I'm okay. I'm very adaptable and flexible. And if things are thrown out me while I'm on my way to that goal, okay. As long as I know, I'm still working towards that goal. So yeah, I'm sure things shifted a little bit but no, I was still out sailing, kayaking, traveling, hanging out with friends, like you can grow baby and do all of those things at the same time. In my head, this is my one life, I only get this set amount of time. So I want to do everything that I want to do during that time. 

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Ross  

To be full. I think it's one of those things where, as you described in a lot of conversations I've had, the power of goals and the flexibility of how is a patent mix and looking at progress, not what you haven't done in each of those pieces is a key element to be additive, not corrosive to confidence. And I guess having those little moments where some things go right some things don't but looking at the progress along the way. So fast forward us a little bit further in the story. He comes home fine, six months pregnant, and what goes on for there for you? 

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Ashley  

Yeah, so we had our daughter, we continued sailing and we own a sailboat and we love spending time on the water together. So we would bring our child sailing. We had this idea, which I'm sure a lot of parents have before they have kids but we said, and we stuck to it that we weren't going to adapt to our baby's world. Instead, we were going to have our baby adapt to our world. And we didn't want to stop being who we were. And we didn't want to stop doing the things that we love, including learning new things, and exploration and all the things that have been really important to us as individuals. We didn't want to stop that.

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And now just be this unit of a family and now just go to the park on the weekends or just go do home improvement projects. We certainly did those two, but in our world, it was “Okay, now how do we adapt to now bring our baby with us to travel the world and to sail across oceans and to do these things that are important to us?” And so yeah, that was kind of how we started our journey of parenthood, it was just from the very beginning, “Okay, we're still us, but now we've got a baby in tow, and maybe we have to settle down for the hour and a half of the day where she takes a nap. But after that, we're gonna get back out there, and we're gonna go for a hike, or we're gonna go do whatever.”

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Ross  

I think that's a really key aspect that all of us face in terms of, to adapt our surroundings to us, or us to our surroundings. And then the complexities when that is more than a huge single unit. When it’s then a couple and a family and in work, a team and an organization, it's this constant sort of poetic dance between are we wanting everyone to adapt to us or us to them to that new process, or this opportunity. And the clarity of making those decisions allow you to live very purposefully. And I remember a great quote that someone gave me that it's the yeses, and noes are absolutely fine, but it's the maybes that kill you. And the, “Okay, we've got kids, but we're going to be us. And they're going to come along for the ride of what that is.” It reminds me, have you ever seen the documentary called Given? 

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Ashley  

No.

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Ross  

It's the first movie I watched or, mini film documentary thing on a new telly I bought. And it was an ultra high def on Netflix, bit of content. And it's narrated by I think he's maybe five or six years old, his name is called Given. And they’re a couple that travelled around the world and their family of young kids just follow them. I think one was an ex-pro surfer, the other one was a filmmaker. And it's just beautifully poetic and it's narrated from the child's recollections of all of these experiences of meeting shamans or going to this island or all these things. So it reminded me a little bit of that. And when we come to the latter bits of, your film of movie pieces that are starting to happen it was something I wanted to ask you about.

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Ashley  

Ross, I just wrote it down, I'm going to go watch that one.

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Ross  

Given. It's beautiful, it's beautifully shot. It's quite poetic. And it just has a nice twist that it's just narrated by a young child. And that's nice. I liked that in those pieces. So carry on because I can’t wait to go through the next bits. 

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Ashley  

My Alexa just started up, I’m sorry. 

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Ross  

Your Alexa just,.. Love it love it.

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Ashley  

Okay, so yeah, we had our daughter, we at this point, my husband was working on a submarine based in Hawaii. We didn't have to move there yet. We owned our home in Washington State, we had ourselves at Washington State, we were pretty set up in Washington State. So instead, he was traveling to Hawaii, pretty much two weeks of every month to get ready for this next deployment. So often my daughter and I would fly over to Hawaii and spend weekends there if we wanted to see him, we had to make make it happen, we had to find ways to make it happen. So that included a lot of trips across the ocean with me and a three-month-old, four-month-old, five-month-old which we didn't mind we love Hawaii anyways. And then our, so one of the trips to Hawaii when Brian and I first started dating and I was over at his house he had this piece of paper stuck to his refrigerator and it said “Learn to scuba dive $99 like fun, adventure, water, excitement” like all these like “Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,” like all these things like “That's us, we need to do that!”

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Ross  

Written for you, written for you.

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Ashley  

Yeah. And Brian was on the fridge and I was like, “Oh, what's this? We should do this,” he was like, “I know, I've been wanting to learn to scuba dive forever.” And I've always loved the water, the ocean, I'm like a fish myself. And I was like, “Let's do it.” Then we got pregnant, you can't dive while you're pregnant. So, one of these trips to Hawaii after we had had Isabel, we had some friends that lived there and we dropped our daughter Isabel off with them. And Brian was like, I've got a surprise date for you. And we drove down to this Marina, parked the car, walked out. And then there it is, this big truck, wasn't the same flyer, but it said, learn to scuba dive, discover scuba dive, and we walked up to and I was like, “Are we diving?” and we'd waited like two years at this point to learn to dive. And he had surprised me with this discover scuba dive. 

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So we did our very first scuba dive together in Hawaii there, did all of our drills, popped up out of the ocean for the first time after breathing on our regulators. And we're just like, the biggest heart eyes like life-changing moment, knowing you could breathe underwater and getting to see all of the sea life in this place that we just loved. And it was just quite literally life-changing. And a few months later, we flew to Mexico, and we got certified to scuba dive in Mexico so that we could dive wherever we wanted, whenever we wanted. And from that moment on, we became scuba divers.

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Ross  

Do you have a view or a reflection on what drives your curiosity and adventure? The exploring side you. Is it from your parents or is it just, it's snowballed. You were this junkie of experiences that just lead, “Well, I've done that one. So I need to do another one. I've seen this place, I need to go to another place,” and it just happenstance or was it goal oriented, right? There's this many cities, this many countries, I want to get them all, let's get them done. How did it work for you, curiosity?

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Ashley  

Yeah. Do you know what the term FOMO fear of missing out? I have a serious case of FOMO. There is nothing that I don't want to see or experience or do. I just, I really have this thing inside of me that says life is going to end at some point. And if I die before I see these things that I know exist or know happen, and I haven't seen them with my own eyes, what am I going to do if I haven't smelled that smell that people have talked about or if I haven't seen the inside of that cave that I know I've seen a picture of an I want to see that. I just, there's just something inside of me. And I feel like people that have explorer's hearts, you just feel it and you have it, it just bubbles up.

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Ross  

Collector of experiences.

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Ashley  

Yeah. And then once you do it, you can't not do it. Like once you've traveled the world or traveled even to a country, it's just inside of you, like you've done it, you know can do it. Like you just now want to see the rest of the world.

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Ross  

And I think it feeds a lot of human nature of this balance between two desires for certainty and uncertainty. Why we do things a second time, watch a movie for a second time, play a sport for a second time, third time, fourth time, because there's elements of those two things of certainty and uncertainty. And from our kind of research, and what we're trying to do of adaptability to make sure people don't get left behind. 

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So when there's an abundance of opportunity, or there's a change required, people have one job, that job shifts or change, they have one task, they have relationships, they have teams, companies that they work with, and it all moves if we're living life, it moves. And a lot of what you've talked about, I can just feel it and see it, this energy and excitement when these experiences fill you with heart eyes, but life isn't always filled with experiences that are heart eye one's, they can be incredibly sad, and debilitating, paralyzing experiences. And they're not necessarily the ones that we go searching for. But they show up in our lives for various bits. And I don't want to spend a lot of time talking about it, but I think it's very relevant for everyone to hear, perhaps those moments for you. 

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When you found out Brian wasn't gonna be part of your next chapter, and how you managed to deal with that because I feel very fortunate that the people around me that I've lost, the closeness has always been that little bit further away. It's been my wife's father or various bits rather than my number two, my number one, in my life. So tell me a little bit about that experience, if we may. And thank you for giving me the opportunity and permission to do that when we first met to ask you.

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Ashley  

Yeah, so this is where the story shifts, fair warning. So 2017 we now had a son as well. So now we've got Isabel and Hudson, they're ages one and three. Brian gets promoted in the military, he's now, he's made it to the rank of Ensign, which means he has done so well for himself in the Navy, that they have recognized him and said, of everybody in the Navy, more or less, we're going to choose six people Navy-wide for this one specific designator and we're going to promote you across the line. So instead of being an enlisted in enlisted rank, you're now going to be an officer. And that happens so rarely. And I only say that so you know like, what a big big deal this was for him and for his career and for us as a family. This is something people in the military like this is this is high up there are things that you want to do.

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Ross  

This is a big event. 

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Ashley  

Yes. So August 2017. He made that promotion. Actually, I'm gonna backtrack just a little bit. He found out he was going to get that promotion in February. We knew when he was going to get it. We had just bought this new sailboat, or an old sailboat but new to us sailboat. And it was like “Okay, well now we know we're gonna move, we know we're gonna move to Hawaii. We know we're gonna want our sailboat in Hawaii. How are we going to get our sailboat to Hawaii?”

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Well, from our craziness or this whole life of like, “Yeah do it”, it became that Brian was gonna sail our sailboat to Hawaii. So in July 6 2017, him and three of our friends set off from Gig Harbor, Washington, and spent three weeks sailing this 36 foot yellow sailboat across the ocean to Hawaii. And we all flew over, my kids and I flew over to meet him there, welcome the boat coming into the harbor, which was just…

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Ross

An amazing experience. 

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Ashley

Yes, the highlight of his life, the smile that was on his face when he got off that boat, just honestly of happiness that he was now on land, happiness of accomplishing it, knowing all of the trials and tribulations that he had to go through out there for three weeks in open ocean. He was a changed man. Like this was not the same Brian that left Gig Harbor and it was the most incredible thing to witness and to watch and to know that he had done that.

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We flew home two days later, August 1st, he got promoted to an officer. He flew off to his officer training school, and I moved to Hawaii with the two kids packed up all of our household stuff, got everything, the cars, the dog, everything shipped off myself and two kids across the ocean to Hawaii. And then Brian has met us there in September and so from September 2017 on we were just living our dream life, we had this playground as our backyard. We had two beautiful kids, our dog, we were just honestly like we could not believe that this was our life.

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Ross  

Really blessed.

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Ashley  

Yes, like every day we'd watch these airplanes fly over our house and just be like, “Suckers, you have to fly home, we get to live here.” It was honestly, this is years ago now and I still just get this feeling inside of me. That's just like, I can't believe that we got to live that life. We sailed, we dive, we just were outside every day we'd get off work. We still do work but we'd get off work and we take the kids to the beach and play in the ocean in Hawaii in paradise and it was just so beautiful.

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And then in December I found out we were pregnant with our third child and we had two miscarriages that year. So finding out on Christmas, we found out Christmas Day, was really exciting but also really scary at the same time because we are now like worried about another miscarriage. But deep within I kind of felt like this one was gonna stick and I don't know why but I knew that this one we were gonna have our child from it. And anyway, so the next few months we just spent hanging out on the island, living this dream life as a family with our two kids ages one and three, I was pregnant, Brian started this dive training on a closed-circuit rebreather. It was a course he had wanted to start since we moved to the island. It's a very like complex piece of equipment. It's not recreational scuba diving equipment. But he started the training for that. And then he was in it for a little while.

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And then May 20th 2018, he woke up to go to class for the day. This is his last training dive of this specific class. My two kids, I'm almost six months pregnant at this point, my two kids are at home with me. And we're sitting on the couch getting ready for the day. And my phone rings. And it's an unknown number. And the temptation was there to not answer it, of course, because I'm thinking it's a sales call. But because of Brian's military service, anytime your spouse is in potential danger as a military spouse, and an unknown number calls, you just intrinsically you know like what if something happened to my spouse, I should probably answer this.

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So I answered it expecting to hear who’s your insurance carrier. And instead, it's a panicked man on the other end of the phone saying, this is the manager of the dive shop. Your husband was in an accident, where are you? Are your kids with you? Where are you, we’re coming to get you. And, I'm stunned. I'm not expecting that phone call. I had just kissed Brian goodbye an hour and a half before that morning and watched him drive away in our truck. And I'm saying “What? No, no, this is Ashley, Brian's in a dive class. No, no.” And he's like, “No, this is the dive shop manager. We're coming to get you. Where are you? There was an accident.” And I think I gave him my address I must have or I must have said I was at home because a few minutes later, here's a strange car pulling in my driveway, and I'm loading my kids into this car, my big pregnant belly, I'm getting into the car. I'm making a phone call to my one friend on the island saying there was an accident, I need you to meet me at the hospital. I don't know what's happened. I don't know if Brian's alive. I don't know what I'm walking into. 

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And fast forward through the sad details, I guess. But I find out about an hour later, that he didn't make it and that he had died in a scuba diving accident, basically in our backyard, in the same waters that he and I had dived in together for the very first time, the same waters that we've surfaced from that dive and just were all smiles and laughing. And that's where he had taken his last breath. And yeah, my one and three-year-old in the car, you know waiting for me to come back out. They don't know what's happening. They're in the car with a stranger. I'm crumbled on the hallway floor of this hospital screaming my big belly in front of me just, it was a nightmare. It was completely a nightmare.

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Ross  

And for everyone listening, I'm sure like me when you were telling me the story before and again. This is something that, as humans, our grief, all of those bits. Were not trained, we're not equipped to deal with that, these things just happen. And like many things, we have to figure it out as we go along in those and you can read a book, you can hear a story, you can watch a movie, but it never prepares us for those moments. 

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And I think that's one of the fundamentals for me that excites me about adaptability is that if we can't predict what we're going to be facing, good or bad. I want to empower people to have the right tools in there kitbag to survive that as well as possible. From having friends around you, the team support, to having mini goals. 

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I remember you talking to me before about, when someone struggling with something, just getting out of bed is an accomplishment. And these things and perhaps people who might be facing and struggling through something right now, it might not be as tragic as what you've just taken us through the journey of but it could still be their worst day they've had. What kind of advice would you give somebody who is perhaps stuck struggling with something right now where many are locked down, trapped, cut off from social interactions, not seeing loved ones, all sorts of bits. What advice having lived those moments, huge highs to an incredible low. What would you give to help people through that?

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Ashley  

Yeah, I think first of all, it's super important what you just said to acknowledge that it doesn't matter what the worst day of your life is, what matters is that you've experienced it. And that you know that type of pain and sadness and grief and confusion and frustration. Those are emotions that we can all relate to. And that's the same dog we move to Hawaii and back with me. It doesn't matter what the actual catalyst was, it's that you've been there. And I think for anyone who has had those kinds of emotions, the biggest piece of advice I could give would be to find an outlet, find something that gives, that drives you, that gives you purpose, that gives you this idea of I'm working towards something and you're right, day one, maybe it's getting out of bed, maybe it's drinking a glass of water, or feeding yourself or trying to get outside and go for a walk. You know, in your case, hopefully, it's not negative three degrees, but getting outside and doing something.

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And then hopefully, as you meet these minuscule goals, which sounds ridiculous when you're in a good headspace, like how hard can it be to get out of bed, when you're there though, it is debilitating, it is that hard to get out of bed, because you just want to live in that grief and in that sadness. But embrace, it recognize it's okay to feel that way, as long as you know you're working towards getting out of it.

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And for me, it became writing, it became, I'd have all of this sadness and devastation inside of me. And I know if I keep it inside of me, it's going to crush me, it's going to consume me. And I'm not going to be around tomorrow. And so it became, I'm just going to start writing. And I'm just going to try to get this out of me and put it on paper and publish it and let the world read it. So I know it's there. And if I need to come back to it, I can and I can live in that same mindset and those same thoughts. 

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But I also feel like once I've written it, and I've shared it, I can move on to that next step. And I can move forward a little bit. And I feel like that's pretty equal lateral. You can put that into anything it could be, you want to start training for a marathon, okay get outside and walk around your block, that's step one. Maybe tomorrow you jog, a quarter of a mile and you walk the rest. And you just start taking these little steps building towards something. 

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But if you give yourself a goal, it doesn't matter what it is, it could be, probably could be hiking a mountain, it could be painting something that doesn't need to take a lot of money or a lot of time. But giving yourself a goal. And not just that, but the confidence and the will to take the steps to meet that goal is what got me through it. And I think is pretty, it's what I'm teaching my kids to do. It's pretty resounding across the board, you're able to do that if you give yourself the will to do it.

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Ross  

I think those things that you've just shared of finding out at whatever that looks like, a pen and paper or keyboard and screen, a friend, whatever it may be to have that dialogue, to be able to have some form of connection. Because it's severed from what was, to what will be, whatever that was, was of person, job, thought, manifestation of beliefs, of those things. 

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And then to incrementally make steps and know that each step is progress. And that might be hard if you're judging and referencing on your before. When you are talking about all of this just abundant energy of experience and excitement to judge a day of getting out of bed with the day that he got off the boat after sailing for three weeks. That's not the sort of judgment that's perhaps super helpful in that moment. It's just I was in bed. Now I'm not in bed. That's the kind of reflection and that's easier said than done. And I admire you to get to the point where now, your adventurous spirit is, been emerging, blossoming and being gifted to your children on exploring, on going on adventures with them.

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And I think the skills that are required for humans to navigate this future we have of a speeding up of everything, this balance be able to pause and reflect, to just take a moment of calm, and then get on a roller coaster and ride it and scream with joy and fear is what life is. And I'm really interested in terms of your children now. And having been through those things as a human being, what are the skills and sort of lessons and areas that you're focusing on with them? I’ll be really curious to know.

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Ashley  

Yeah, these kids, I mean, all kids these days, honestly, like, this is a crazy, crazy time for kids, ages, what any kids really, but older than like two or three who have kind of lived a life of, “normal” and now everything around them has shifted, and not just everything around them, but the way that their parents or people around them are viewing things and talking about things. It's just bonkers. 

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So thankfully, or unthankfully, my kids have been thrust into a kind of a life of chaos leading up to this pandemic. Izzy was three, Hudson was one when their dad died. And obviously that kind of set things off of we don't know what tomorrow is going to look like anymore. And we don't know what it's gonna feel like or what we're going to be talking about, or the emotions that are going to come with us. We moved off the island we moved again, eventually we picked up travel again. And, you know…

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Ross  

You had a European tour, didn't you?

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Ashley  

Yeah, we did, we went on a two month trip through Europe, we traveled for two months to eight countries of Europe. Just to try to find, I mean, for a multitude of reasons. But the main reason was to try to find some of that confidence back in myself. I wanted to prove to myself that I could simultaneously hold this place of grief and sadness and loss of Brian with finding that piece of me that was inside of me before with that adventurous spirit, and that need to tackle things and not being fearful. And yeah, it just became this, that's going to be my outlet.

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Ross  

You beautifully framed there, this paradoxical thinking, a mental flexibility to hold two opposing thoughts in the mind at the same time, and not end up in, a padded cell or a straight jacket, to hold this sense of grief, of fear of all of those bits, and go and do the very same thing again, and travel and explore, and even go scuba diving again. And there was a very touching story you were sharing with me about the anniversary and scuba diving and things, which to me sums up an incredible resilience that's not about bouncing back, it's about bouncing forward, to go to a place of betterment, to use it as fuel, and to hold this sort of mental flexibility of that negative and experience in still exploring curiosity. That is you, that is who you are, to live in the same person and not need medication, I mean these things of, we are so powerful as human beings of what our capabilities of, and we're limited only by our ambition. 

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And you've inspired me a lot, through a lot of your writings, so thank you for sharing those. And perhaps just to wrap up for everybody who might have their teams who might consider even their family of what they're going through when they're in unnatural situations like we're facing. We're trying to homeschool, the environment changed, our job is it secure or unsecure?

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How do we face each day and move forward and be best versions of that day and if the best version was getting out of bed, was smiling, was making the breakfast for the kids or given the task to a new member team. That by definition is the best day. So just share with me the little story about the anniversary, the bravery and I guess just the endless experience curiosity that you have as a person around what you're doing. Going back scuba diving and bits.

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Ashley  

You can call it stupidity it's okay, like it's a fine line of bravery vs. Yeah, well, first I want to touch real quick on the kid question, because I think, honestly my biggest learning lesson through all of this is, we all say how resilient and adaptable kids are. And it's absolutely true. But you have to foster that environment for them, you can't just expect them to be okay, you have to create experiences, and education in a comfortable, confident environment for them to feel safe, to be resilient and to be adaptive and to grow, knowing that they can fall back to. And my kids, they really are tough as nails, they are so curious. And they're so smart, and funny and powerful. 

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But they also have off days, and I have to remember that, just like me, they're experiencing all these crazy emotions, and it's based on what they're hearing. And I can guide them as much as I can. And this is the same for anybody in a leadership role, employees, staff, anybody, you can guide them, and you can tell them what to do or how to do it. But unless you're really giving them this environment of feeling safe to do that, it's not going to work. 

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And they're going to hear what you say, but they're going to watch how other people are doing it, or what's going on around them. And that's going to be their guidance. So as a mom, I've really just watched how I'm guiding them and how I'm leading these kids. And I'm doing it by, “Am I raising them to be the person that I am?” And if I'm telling them one thing and doing something else, it's not gonna happen.

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Ross  

It’s that modeling, isn't it, right? It’s that safety, that fostering the environment in which we can thrive to try new things, to do new things. If you're creating it but not living it yourself, kids are probably the most observant to see. So in order to create a psychologically safe or a safe environment for team to try new things is you have to bloody try new things too, that's part of the criteria of a safe environment. And often forgotten, isn't it that “Oh, I've done all of that, but I don't need to do it.” And so I think that is an absolute aspect that comes, it sounds like it's natural to you, because it's who you are. For others, it might not be so natural to do all of those things, rather than fall into what I've done before. And see their safety as repeat, as known, as proven to lead by unknown and to do new, it takes bigger bravery for those individuals to do that. And that then ripples out. So I'm glad you shared that piece as well.

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Ashley  

Absolutely. And I think it's like we talked about earlier, I'm so goal-oriented. And by design, I would think I'd be more of a type A personality of, I have a goal, I know I'm going to reach that goal. And then I have to take these very specific steps to reach that. But instead, I'm super, like, I might go here, I might go here, like, what's gonna happen today? What are you gonna throw at me today that's going to shift me maybe that puts me way over here. And now my goal has shifted a little bit, but that goal is still the same. And so I think raising kids and managing teams is very similar to that, like you all have this goal in mind, you just have to be adaptive how you're gonna reach that goal.

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Ross  

That’s beautiful, it's nice. And just I want you to share that story because for me, it gave me confidence of how far you've come through your process. And I think others will see from the high to the tragedy, to the story, I want to give them the opportunity to know where you're at, and that they can also by nature of that give them hope as well.

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Ashley  

Yeah, so when Brian died, pretty soon after that, I was pretty adamant that even though scuba diving had been a part of our lives for years now and like one of the best parts of our lives, it was just this thing that we just loved and felt like it was a part of us. Like inside of us we knew and felt like we were scuba divers but I now had two almost three kids to take care of and I knew the only way to have their story not be both of my parents died in scuba diving accidents was to not dive and I was very set of “I can never dive again”, like that would be absolutely insane. Obviously, anything can go wrong at any time. It's Scary, it would be irresponsible of me to dive. What if an accident happened? I was scared obviously, I was very scared. I was very… 

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Ross  

Paralyzing. 

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Ashley  

Yeah, debilitating. The thought of putting on scuba gear just, I was okay, I had washed my hands. And I was like, I know what the ocean looks like. I'm done, I can't do it. Turns out, I could do it. A year later, on the one-year anniversary, I had had Brian's ashes turned into what's called a living reef memorial. And they take human cremains and mix them with organic material. And you place it on the ocean floor, and it becomes part of the local ecosystem. 

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And when I found out about this, I was like, “There's literally nothing more that Brian would want than something like this.” And so I had one created from his ashes, had it flown to Hawaii. And the plan was the person that had bought our sailboat that he had sailed across the ocean with I was thankfully still friends with him. 

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And I was going to be going out on that sailboat with my kids and Brian's family. And we were going to watch Brian's dive team lower this memorial onto the ocean floor, the exact same place Brian and I had dived for the very first time at. And just days before, it was just kind of, like eating inside of me, like I can't imagine knowing that reef is down there and not seeing it with my eyes. I can't imagine like, that's Brian, like that is quite literally the love of my life. And I can't imagine not having my hands on it and getting to say goodbye. And it's just his dive team. And I'm up on the ocean surface. This is the one opportunity and I know if I don't take it, I'm going to regret it. And for me, the idea of regret is so much worse than the fear of what could happen. 

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And so just days before I just kind of got it in my head that it would be for me, more irresponsible to not be there and to watch my kids, have my kids watch me just live in this state of fear of missing out on something than to actually do it. And I knew who I'd be diving with, I knew his dive team, I knew nobody's gonna let anything happen to me on that dive. And so I called one of the guys I was coordinating the trip with and I said, “Eric, I think I'm going to do the dive.” I mean, he said, “What?” And I said, “I can't not do it, I have to be a part of this.” And he said, “Okay, let's make it happen.” And I said, “I think I need to let everyone know, in case they want to back out,” This is already a really emotional dive. And now, I'm adding this extra element and it could create a lot of uneasiness with the dive team. And I understand that, but I can't not do it. And so he's like, “Ash, okay, let's do it.” And so he called everyone and everyone was like, “Oh my god, girl, you're insane. You're amazing.” Like, I don't think I could do that. Yes, this is amazing. This is absolutely amazing.

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And so a few days later, we flew to Hawaii, and on the one-year anniversary, my family, my kids all got on our boat stay gold and traveled out to the dive site, and I got all my dive gear on. And we dove into the wreck that he died on. And then we traveled over and with his dive team, I got to help place his reef that's still there. And it was, I'm just so grateful that I pushed through that fear and that pain and put myself in a position that I knew was going to be sad, and I knew it was going to hurt and I knew it was going to be so so scary. But I also knew that I would regret not doing it. And so yeah, I placed his reef and now there's this reef there that anytime I'm in Hawaii, I dive with his team or with friends and we go visit the reef and other divers who are diving in the area that know where it is can go visit it and yeah.

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Ross  

It really gives me emotional chills to hear stories like that. And part of me, we all try in our own minds to understand, to rationalize, to empathize, to do all of these sorts of complex things. And for me, all I had in my head was is, that that was Brian's doing in my head, was that he knew who you were and what you needed in order to unleash who you are. And to have something cut off from you, to not dive again, I think he made this happen in that way to get you into that opportunity to overcome it. That's my own little mind going in little funny circles and spins.

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And I think for everyone, when we faced the most challenging times that you just described there that you knew going into it was going to be a whole plethora that isn't just you, it affects the dive team, the family, all of the choices that we make. But those choices made with deliberate intent, give the opportunity for great things to come out for you and others. 

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And so I am very confident of your surroundings, your family, your children, will become something because of that very moment, as well. And I could talk for a long time with you. But I know we mentioned the series of “This Is Us”, in terms of their such emotional journeys, that you can only watch one or two at a time. And what I liked in that is these little moments in our lives that as parents, we don't know the effect we've had on our children. When we're leaders, the moments we don't know what effect we've had on people around us. When we are somebody in a team although we might not lead but we're a component on of how we affect others. And so if we go through life writing the types of histories we want, the event is the event, the history we write, and the way we view it is ours. And we can choose what we do with that. 

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And I'm just amazed at the way in which you have written the chapters and pages of your journey so far, and I look forward to what else you give the world in your experiences, and they're not insignificant. They really are huge ripples and waves that I'm proud to bring to some of our listeners as well. And I wish you and your family an amazing continued exploratory journey of every serendipitous and exciting moment as well as every goal that you set being ticked. So thank you, Ashley.

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Ashley  

That’s so sweet, thank you.

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Voiceover  

Do you have the level of adaptability to survive and thrive in the rapid changes ahead? Has your resilience got more comeback than a yo-yo? Do you have the ability to unlearn in order to reskill, upskill, and breakthrough? Find out today and uncover your adaptability profile and score your AQ visit "AQai.io" To gain your personalized report across 15 scientifically validated dimensions of adaptability for limited time enter code "Podcast65" for a complimentary AQ me assessment. AQ AI transforming the way people, teams, and organizations navigate change.

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Outro

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