Podcasts

Episode 26 - Decoding AQ with Ross Thornley Feat. Beth Miller - Creating Organisational Coaching Cultures

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Intro

Hi, and welcome to Decoding AQ, helping you to learn the tools, mindsets, and actions to thrive in an ever-changing world.

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Ross  

Hi, and welcome to the next episode of Decoding AQ, I have Beth Miller, who's joining us from Atlanta in the US. And she's a talent manager advisor at Executive Velocity Inc., where she's been for quite some time and welcome.

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Beth  

Well, thank you, Ross. I've been looking forward to our conversation today.

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Ross  

Great stuff. So we had a little moment to have a bit of a conversation beforehand. And I'm interested just to take your journey. You mentioned Vistage that you've been involved with them for some time. And you've been at Executive Velocity, is it 14 years? 

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Beth  

Yeah, 14 years.

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Ross  

So I imagine seeing lots of different experiences, lots of talks, lots of things with different companies. Now, we really excited to get get into there. But what led you in the first place to chair and be involved in Vistage? What was the background for that?

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Beth  

Well my husband and I were running a technology consulting firm back in the late 90’s, we made "Inc 500" fastest growing company, ran it to until 2002 and sold it and we both found ourselves unemployed. But took some time off, we're big travelers so clearly right now is a challenge for us. And I was doing a lot of volunteer work. And I still do but it wasn't feeding me the way running a business did. So I started networking and met with a friend who had been a Vistage member for many years, and spoke very highly of it. So back in 2005, I became a Vistage chair. And I've found my passion. And that was working with small to mid-sized companies, privately held, and helping their leaders get to that next level through coaching and training. And it just went from there, I set up Executive Velocity and started bringing on clients as well as working with with Vistage up until last year when I stepped away from Vistage.

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Ross  

I think it's a really unique space and skill that often these small businesses, owner-managed, owner-run, how many of them are actually trained and supported to have that role. They're often good at something, and then it's snowballed, they start employing people and it surrounds themselves and then the complexities come. And I know this from experience, I ran a brand and marketing agency for nearly 18 years. And I sold it in 2017 and just a roller coaster of everything, highs, lows, dealing with every aspect beyond my training. Be that finance or HR, when I was a designer, you kind of learn on the job but reaching out to coaches, reaching out to these networks for me was a breakthrough in terms of my own development and the company development. So I guess that passion for you have a connection of having done it yourselves within the tech business with your husband and then being able to connect with others, it was a unique, unique mix.

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Beth  

Yeah, we look back at all the mistakes that I made that I would run across with other business owners and so I could empathize with them as we were having these conversations, and I could share with them some of the things that I learned but then as a group, a Vistage group, then you get peer advice as well which is invaluable.

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Ross  

It is I think this, I came across a few years ago this either swarm or hive coaching and mentoring, where instead of it's a bit like a combination of peer group learning to actually having multiple in effect coaches or people coaching an individual at the same time in the same environment and it's super powerful.

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Beth  

Yeah, I have done, I don't it swarm or hive, but group coaching where we all go into organizations where they might have a group of high potentials and their peers, and it will be a blend of kind of that peer work, as well as individual coaching. It's very powerful.

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Ross  

It is. And when you mentioned before about your big travelers, and that's a challenge for you right now, something sprung into my mind of a talk a few years ago that really inspired me. And it was a chap who was creating a movement around micro adventures and mini adventures, 

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Beth  

Okay. 

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Ross  

And the concept was, it was within a certain time and span of where you live, how you can make those areas, the everyday a mini adventure. So for example, he talked about going to visit his parents, and he's got his own family and young children. And normally they jump in the car, go 40 minutes down the road and spend time with the parents. And they decided to change that into an adventure where they went on a hike. They camped halfway, and they got there the next day. So it was like this mini adventure to do something different, when it just sprung to my mind of, how could we treat this challenge of lockdown and distancing? And all of these things as many adventures rather “Ugh I can't travel, how would I do things slightly differently that might feed that need in sadness?”

Beth  

And I think that's a great concept. For me personally, I have an 87-year-old mother who's living with us. So that, otherwise.

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Ross  

Has it's own challenge, 

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Beth  

Right, exactly.

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Ross  

Yeah. So one of the aspects that I understand you have helped organizations and work on is this challenge of succession. And I want to understand the scope of succession because succession can mean many things to different people, right? It could be succession of a person, of a leader, it could be succession in terms of a product line or propositions, that we're having to now succeed what may have given us value yesterday, and reimagining our businesses is a form of succession. Maybe a different parallel to think about the differences between product succession, and maybe even individuals in the traditional sense. Tell us your experience of succession planning, some of the highs and lows of that be great.

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Beth  

Yeah. So because I work with mostly smaller mid-sized companies, generally 300 employees or less, one of the biggest roadblocks I see in smaller companies is the Founder owner, being in fear of making him or herself replaceable because they don't have a vision for what they will do afterwards. They have spent their entire life or a big portion of their lives, building what I call their baby. And that fear is one of the things that I often end up spending a lot of time with the owner on first, because if they're not fully committed to it, doing an organizational succession plan, which means looking at the entire organization and figuring out what the key positions are, and making sure that you have people that are being developed to take the those key positions when they are empty, then you can't do it unless you've got the commitment of that CEO Founder. And so that's the biggest roadblock.

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Ross  

Is that fear and vision? What do you think underpins that? Is it the fact that, from my own experience, wanting to be able to contribute and feel like I'm having a valuable contribution. That part of my challenge that going through that succession fear because I put in an MD and for 18 months before I sold it was completely hands-off, it was a self-managing business. And that kind of transition of the fears of well, I had a vision for what next? But I guess many don't have that vision. And it's a balance of being able to let go and be excited about what’s next. How do you how do you overcome that?

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Beth  

Yeah. So one of the things that I find, from time to time is a CEO Founder, either identify somebody internally that can be their successor and starts developing them and preparing them for their position. But they have a real challenge in letting go and stepping in when they really shouldn't be stepping in. And oftentimes, what happens is that individual starts getting frustrated. And there are times when they just decide, “You know what I gotta go. I can't get what needs to be done with this individual continue to come in and sticking their fingers in the pie.”

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Ross  

Yeah, I guess it needs such an adaption and change of their thinking, of their behavior of everything that they've learned to be successful so far, they have to reimagine themselves and the way they behave, what they get involved in and all of those things. And the principles we talked about is unlearning. So that ability to unlearn stuff, they've got to go through a lot of that.

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Beth  

Unlearn and then build a new habit, one of the important things is that they have a clear understanding of success metrics and some sort of dashboard, that they can view from afar, that might alert them to some issues. That then they have a conversation with that President CEO, because they've at least got, they're not there day in day out, but they at least have visibility to those key metrics that would show them that the company is healthy and moving forward.

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Ross  

What are some of the challenges that the person that is then taking on that challenge face? What advice could you give them if they're the person almost been given the baton? Or maybe half? Or it's taken back every now and again? How do they deal with it?

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Beth  

Well, first of all, if it's an internal promotion, they're going to be dealing with people that used to be their peers, that are now reporting to them. So it's, how do you manage that relationship to make sure that it's a healthy one, and that those individuals that are reporting to the new President CEO, understand that the roles has changed, and that there's going to be clear accountability and all of that. So that's from a downwards, stream. Upwards, it's creating a working norms with the current owner. “What are those things that I can't do?” It's not what are the things I can do? But “What are those things that I will have to come to you?”

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Ross  

Yeah, so clear boundaries.

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Beth  

Right exactly. Yeah.

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Ross  

And is there a, in your experience of, helping loads of different organizations through that process, an average timeline that it takes? What would be an expectation if I was somebody who the CEO just approached me, told me that they're thinking of moving on and would I like to take it on? What would be a, there's the, of course, desired, what they think they might want, and then there's a reality of how long it takes. What have you seen in some of those timelines?

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Beth  

Well, it really depends. It depends on what are the gaps that an individual has, that need to be developed. And those things generally are tied to core competencies, knowledge and skills. So what you've got to do a really good assessment on that person and get a development plan in place. And obviously that development plan includes a timeline. I generally like to chunk it down into six months increments, “Okay, in the next six months, this is what needs, what information development needs to happen for that person.” 

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And you obviously back into it, if somebody is decided they want to retire in three years. Well, that gives you a little longer timeline, right. And if they, the reverse is if they want to retire in a quicker amount of time, that could be a problem, that person may not be ready. So you've got to be looking.

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Succession Planning is not like Exit Planning. Succession Planning is an ongoing process. It's integrated into your business planning process. It's something that should happen on an annual basis, you should be looking in evaluating your talent pool, identifying those potentials, and creating development plans for them so that when you get to the point where you have decided, “Okay, it's going to be another 18 months, two years before, I want to exit.” That individual has been identified and has already been being developed. So there's a shorter development plan or timeframe.

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Ross  

I'm curious around, that's in an almost planned situation and the person in who's currently steering the ship saying “I don't want to steer it anymore and let's work, and plan and look at that.” What if there's a situation where I'm listening to this and I'm not at the top, but I see maybe the people at the top are making decisions differently to what I think they should be. Maybe under this unique melting pot of pressures, where we have to reimagine just about every business. And I'm feeling that maybe that could cause the company harm. I'm seeing that other, they're not seeing the writing on the wall, we're not innovating quick enough, we're not doing these things.

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How would you support somebody through being able to help a business survive when maybe the current leadership aren't aware they need to be succeeded. But if they aren't, it potentially puts the entire business at risk. And I could well imagine many businesses being in this situation right now. Where they're under such pressure and nobody's prepared for what we've just been through and going through, and maybe those that have been there a long time are not able to adapt as quickly as others might see that. How might you advise people in that sort of situation? 

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Beth  

Yeah, I would advise them first to come up with some questions that would get those individuals that have been around for a while and not kind of seeing past this issue of t future impact. What are we doing today that if we continue to do is not going to be beneficial? Those kind of coaching questions really. It's just that you're coaching up versus coaching down. And just, it's getting curious. And I in fact recommend individuals to start with that statement. I'm curious. What do you think about… How would you do X? What would you do next? It's getting curious.

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Ross  

And what are some of the things to be aware of, somebody who's been a coach who knows how to position it, how to frame it, and that's seen as a development not as a point of in the bad hands, in bad context, “Are you trying to prove that I'm not doing my job right or are you trying to catch me out?” versus “I'm a coach and that's why I'm here and I'm wanting to develop with you.” 

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Beth  

Right.

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Ross  

Certainly somebody who isn't that, what are maybe a couple of the pitfalls of what you've seen in your career, where organizations have done that well to prepare through these sort of periods of change? And that's really what you've been dealing with is helping them through change. What are some of the tips that you could give? 

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Beth  

I think, first of all as an organization, it's how you set up kind of the coaching culture within your organization. There are, and I'm really hesitant, to go into an organization, where the only time they use coaching is to fix somebody. They tried everything and their last resort is, “Let's call Beth in or some other coach and she gonna be able to fix them.” Well at that point… 

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Ross  

It’s impossible to pass.

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Beth  

Right exactly. And it's usually too late because that individual will already have a reputation in the organization that may have been hurt and be difficult to change perception by others. Whereas those organizations that embrace coaching as a development tool and one method of developing somebody is a much better culture as it relates to coaching. So that people, when they hear coaching they say “Oh, this is a benefit, I get to have a coach.”

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In fact, just before our conversation, I was having my first coaching conversation with somebody in an organization that I've been supporting for the last five years. And they definitely have that coaching culture, where they have high potentials moving up in the organization, and they want to give them some coaching to round them out. It's not fixing them. It's enhancing them.

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Ross  

Enhancing them. I'm interested in, so inside organizations and the culture that you've been talking about there, many might be familiar with a culture that is a learning culture or a development culture, we have l&d departments within organizations. What's the difference between learning, development training and coaching? In that context?

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Beth  

Yeah, so learning is gathering information, new knowledge. Coaching is really about asking questions and challenging an individual's self-limiting beliefs and getting them to come to their own solution. The learning, what's important about learning is making sure that you are able to apply it. So it's important that when somebody is going through training, that they're going through it at a time when they can apply it effectively. So if it's for instance, it's accountability, then what relationships do they have that they can take the information that they've learned about creating an accountable interaction and putting it into place pretty quickly. So that it's building that new habit.

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Ross  

So I guess it's in that context, it kind of a bit, the glue between the learning and the doing, between the thinking and the actual practical aspect. And the outcome is the development of the new habit or the result. So we have some outputs but the outcome is that you've then leveled up, you've either upskilled or you've reskilled somebody in an area and the coaching plays a bit in the glue.

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Beth  

Yeah in fact, my coaching oftentimes includes a development plan that we've identified. For instance, this individual that I was talking about, we identified the delegation was going to be one skill that she needed to really improve on because her time management was poor, and it really related to delegation. So trying to get to the underlying cause and then once we start working on her homework, and then there's coaching that reinforces or helps to shift any kind of techniques that we've agreed for her to try and getting her feedback from individuals. So it's kind of a blended method.

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Ross  

In terms of some of the executive coaching work that you do, many are going to be faced with now completely new things they're having to do, reskilling themselves, whether that's underpinned from a technological shift or an environmental one of the industrial industry change. What are some of the methods that you use or an example in an organization where the reskilling has happened for executives that you could tell a story of that we can learn from?

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Beth  

So one of the biggest themes I have seen over these last several months now that everybody really is not meeting face to face and Zoom meetings have become prevalent, is that leaders have made a shift from being results focused first and then relationship follow, to have a flip flop where they realize that they need to make sure that their employees are okay. That there's a lot of anxiety and fear still. And so they have started those meetings more as personal check-ins and they've really gotten to understand their employees better because of that.

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My hope is that, that continues a year from now, that will still be happening. I would say maybe my experience has shown that maybe 20% of the people will stick with that. The other 80% will go back to, “Okay, what's happening, where do we need to get results?” But it's been a great learning. What one of the things I often ask leaders is, “What have you learned about yourself during this process? What are those things that maybe have surprised you?” 

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And getting them to self reflect. I've also encouraged them, some of them won't do it because it's just not their cup of tea but to journal and to reflect on, what's working, what's not working? What have they learned about themselves? How do they take care of themselves? That's another thing is that so many of them are focused on helping their employees but they're not helping themselves. And unless you as a leader are healthy, you can't help your employees to the degree that you could, if you were.

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Ross  

I think that's really key. It's the analogy I use, is when you're on an aircraft and they're giving you the advice, you put your air mask on yourself first before others, you need to be healthy. The same with leaders is how are you feeding yourself to be healthy? When we're doing the self reflection, are we going down a dark path by looking at all the things on my big to-do list that I didn't do and beating myself up? Or am I finding the things that I did well? Am I looking through a positive lens or negative? And does that then spin off into my aura to others?

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I love your flip flop of from results to relationships, and the need to prioritize relationships when we're at a distance. And when we are in effect disconnected from many of the cues we get, we don't even realize we're getting them. When we're physically with somebody we can sense things, some people are really good at it that can sense all of those things, some less so and need to put in the habits and train themselves be aware of that.

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In terms of some advice, I feel super fatigued from Zoom, a day for me, you can start, very early in the morning till late in the evening, because of different time zones because it's now possible to Zoom anywhere. And all of a sudden the expectation that we put on ourselves to, Zoom is now a transportation network. It's not just a communication network, it transports us to the same place, we're now in a same place somewhere in Cloudlandia. You know, that you've joined from Atlanta, I joined from the UK and we're able to have a conversation. Preparing to deal with the relationship worth versus the result, what would you advise people do when equally they feel under so much pressure to get a result? To put that first, how might they manage that?

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Beth  

I think part of it and this is something that has come up quite a bit. Leaders who say “Okay, I'm really concentrating on the relationship, but I don't feel the confidence that some of these people are working as hard as if they were in the office.” That's one of the things I hear. And it's okay, are they getting the results that you're looking for? If they're getting the results that you're looking for, then you're worrying about something you shouldn't be worried about.

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If on the other hand, the results aren't coming then it's a matter of creating accountability and metrics that will allow you to know that they're doing what they need to be doing. So it's digging down into, the job description and profile and understanding what is success for that individual?

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Ross  

So I've got a question for you here. And the world is accelerating in requiring us to change on every front, change the way we think, the way we do work in a both a positive and in some aspects could be viewed as a negative way. And if I'm seeing part of my team, not embracing the speed of change that's required. So the difference between I have a great relationship, I'm working with them, they care about what we're doing, but they're just not getting the results at the speed, we need the results. It might have been that they were getting results great when we were in a linear world, whereas now this pressure of life and death of speed of being able to create value much quicker when we're under pressure.

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How might I best approach that with my team? What would that look like? I love already these great questions that you've shared almost coaching questions to use, but how might we approach that situation if people are not changing quick enough? Or getting the results quick enough? They might have done slowly, but now it's about speed.

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Beth  

Right and the first thing I would do is make sure they understand that speed is important. If they're not being measured by that, that's a problem, right? Now, if they are being measured on that, then as a team bring them together and maybe brainstorming on, how can we change the process or tweak the process to make sure that we're doing it quicker. What are some of the steps that maybe not value-added or steps that aren't going to be productive.

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Ross  

So it's a great opportunity to reimagine and remove a whole load of process weight.

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Beth  

Yeah. Exactly

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Ross  

Within these things, so it could be positioned and framed in that way to release some of the shackles to allow people to do that. And another kind of twist to that, what if I then am feeling that, but I don't think it's even possible as a leader that I'm almost feeling there's two higher expectations, that I know they're doing the best they can, we've removed all of that stuff, but I still feel fearful of the environment of my sector, of my business. Where else might they be able to go and what have you seen work really well? You mentioned about peer learning and about Vistage and those sorts of groups. Where might they look for help that isn't maybe within their team, but is outside of that? Where would they start?

Beth  

You know peer groups are a great method. But I would also encourage, because Vistage would do this, you have within a Vistage group different industries. And that's so you've got a safe place to bring significant issues and you're not concerned about a competitor sitting next to you. It's important to be able to look broadly with across industries. So what can you be learning from other industries that could be valuable to your industry and to your company.

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So it's really about making sure that you stay up to date with trends not just in your industry, but others. So it's making sure that you read. I've got an inbox of articles that I'm constantly getting. And I will open it up and just quickly look at the titles. Say okay, this one looks like something that I should delve into and that's how I stay abreast with what's going on.

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Ross  

With what's going on. I want to circle us back to one of the original threads around making ourselves replaceable and that was very much under the lens of kind of succession and thinking of the leaders of small businesses. What about making myself replaceable in my own task and career and role? So some of this is going to come along because of technical disruption. 

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I may have a role that is in telesales or customer service via big phone centers, that now Chatbots all of these things are coming along that are displacing a role. How might many individuals rethink and reimagine the succession almost of themselves to leave their old identity and be able to create a new one for a new role? And what might they be able to learn from the examples you gave before of succession of, almost a CEO or owner going to “Oh my current job and I want to be a succession to my current identity and current job to my new one?” What might we take away from that situation?

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Beth  

I think that it's important that individuals understand their strengths. What are those strengths that they bring that aren't specific skills and knowledge that can be transferred to other industries and other positions? So that's the first thing is understanding your core strengths. And then what is it that brings you joy? What brings you passion? There are a number of people I know who have reinvented themselves two or three times, because they have learned more about themselves through the previous experience, and understood what were those things that really brought them joy and passion. What were those things that they didn't particularly like, and they've reinvented themselves.

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Ross  

I like that idea a lot. And in my journey speaking to people this sort of pursuit of passion or to find something as if it's an X on a treasure map somewhere that when I get there, “Oh, that's it,” to the other thought of you have a big block of stone. And actually, all I'm doing is taking away the other things to reveal the sculpture, it was always in there. So I'm discovering my passion, rather than going and finding it. And I discover it by going and doing things, experiencing them. What have I done this week for the first time? What experiment have I done to say, “Do I want to do that again? Or do I not want to do that again?”

Almost being back to what it was like when we were children. We were playful, when we were experiencing different things to say, “Is that something I want to repeat or I want to let go?” And so that's something that I've already taken away from our conversation is at those transition points, to go and explore, to be curious, to try new things, to discover because our passion evolves, and it gets nuances to it as we go deeper down, or as we see something else that we’re inspired by.

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In terms of to kind of wrap up with a few really practical tips of where the essential skills to survive in small businesses today, and how they might ensure that their teams have all the things that you've been talking about of great succession planning, coaching culture, all of those things. What are two very practical tips that somebody could start doing today, that will have an impact for them?

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Beth  

So one of the things is understanding how to hire great people that fit with your culture. I find that smaller companies, they're small and every individual that you bring on is important and is an important puzzle piece to your operations and success. And what I find is that a lot of these small businesses are focused on the resumes and the skills and the experience and not focused on how that individual is going to fit in their organization.

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I use the analogy of the palm tree. Palm tree is will thrive in Florida. But if you pick it up and transplant it in Alaska, it's gonna die. It was great in Florida, but not so much in Alaska. And that happens a lot where there's been somebody that's been very successful in one company, but they've wound up in an environment that doesn't motivate and engage them. So that to me would be one thing is really, really figuring out how to hire the right people that fit your culture and your values.

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I think the second one is accountability and accountable interactions. Oftentimes, when especially in smaller companies, you're running rapidly, and you communicate quickly, you don't slow down and ask the individual to say back to you what they heard, kind of echo back. And what happens is that person thinks they heard what you said, but didn't, and goes down the wrong path and loses time and productivity. And you find out a couple days later that they didn't do exactly what you thought you would tell them. So asking them to echo back what they heard and then that gives you time in the moment to self-direct and that to me is huge. It's slowing down.

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Ross  

Slow down to speed up, in effect. 

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Beth  

Exactly.

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Ross

And that's a really great point and great tip to just, we're at such pace, we're communicating, we're going “Oh on our next Zoom, next bit,” to just build in time to say, “Reflect back, what did you understand from that? What are the action points and things that you're going to be doing and taking away from this,” so that we can make sure before it closes off and before it's too late, that they've wasted days or weeks going down, what they thought they heard. That's a great one.

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And the other one, I for years had this challenge around when you bring talent in, and being able to see beyond the label that's on the forehead that says, “I'm going to be a great fit for your culture,” that when you get them in you go, “Oh, no, I've just bought a palm tree to my Alaska base.” But they looked like something else. How can you mitigate against the unknown of the counterfeit? We can do all the best we can, we can have the interviews, we can communicate with them, we can take references and we can get a sense and feel for how they've been before. 

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And we're then taking a guess, right? That they're going to thrive in this new environment. And we can mitigate some of those things and say, “Okay, might not be Florida, but it's another sunny place, and the soil has got the same nutrients and all of these things.” And so we go, “Okay yeah, I think the palm tree is gonna exist because it's come from a small company, or a small company, or from this role to this role. 

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Beth  

Right. 

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Ross  

And but I've still got it wrong. I've got it wrong many times where I thought, “Oh, this is gonna be a great culture of fit and loads of things that are there.” And it just doesn't work out. And I'd love to be able to find a way in which that happens and it's still seen as a very positive, rather than it's seen as, “Oh, I got it wrong” to uh, okay, we had in this motion this, I don't know what it is, and the only thing that I've seen is just, oh, it's a three-month probation, on either side, you have to find out does it fit? Is there a better way or something else can do it.

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Beth  

I mean, that's one way. The other is there are a lot of companies that don't use assessments. And assessments can uncover natural behaviors that were built between zero and three years old. And those are generally those go-to behaviors when you're under stress. And stress is what will cause bad behavior. So if you have an understanding of what their natural tendencies are, that doesn't mean that they operate that way all the time because they've had experience and figured out that they need to adjust. But you can then build some questions around those natural go-to’s that may be a misfit with your culture and organization.

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Ross  

So get help to see the invisible in terms of some of those innate way people operate, the way they solve challenges, the way they face things under stress is going to be super valuable as insights.

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Beth  

And just make sure that the assessment is validated for hiring because there are a lot of assessments out there that aren't.

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Ross  

Yeah and the same in terms of for development, within development seeing is someone fit for this transition for the next bit to take on the next role as “Oh, they've been in there, they've done it, they've done a great job.” But do they have now what it takes? Where's the gap? And what are we putting in place in order for them to thrive because we're picking that palm tree up and we're now going to put them in the block of flats on the third floor. 

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Beth  

Right.

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Ross  

And so it's equally important internally as bringing in brand new talent when you're transferring.

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Beth  

Yeah, that's a major mistake I see with smaller companies. And that is they get confused between performance and potential. And they think, “Hey, high performer, somebody is really good at graphical design is super good at it. Well, gee, you know what, we've got an opening for a manager in graphical design, let's put Joe in that position.”

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They're two entirely different skill sets. And that they oftentimes will give, in fact, I was just talking to this woman at my client site earlier today. And she was talking about how this one woman who she was on her team when she was promoted. She was given a lead position. And she, three years ago said, “I don't want this,” but they gave it to her anyways. And so now this woman is dealing with a performance issue. I mean, this woman didn't it want to begin with.

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Ross  

Yeah, we do. I've certainly been guilty of this challenge of potential versus performance. And we innately reward high performance, and we think it's often in a way in which it's not wanted, to manage people versus I just want to master this area that I'm delivering value in, and I want to just get better and better at that. And so that's a great takeaway. And great point.

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If any of our listeners have been inspired and reimagined and rethought about, maybe they've had some learning, got development in their organization. But as a result of listening to this now we’re thinking, “Ah we could unlock that and maximize it through some coaching.” They might not have explored coaching before and they perhaps want to reach out to you, how would they get in touch with you? What's the best way of doing that, Beth?

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Beth  

Two ways. One is through my website, which is executive-velocity.com. And on that, I also have a resource page that's got a lot of free resources that they can download, related to hiring and leadership development. Then there's LinkedIn, you can find me on LinkedIn, it's the easiest way to find me is also use my maiden name, which is Armknecht. It's A,R,M,K,N,E,C,H,T. So it's Beth Armknecht Miller. I'm the only one there. So that'll be the easiest way to reach out to me.

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Ross  

That's fantastic. It's been a real pleasure. And I certainly have got some value from our conversation and I appreciate your time, Beth, it's been really joyful.

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Beth  

Well, I enjoyed it as well. Ross, thank you.

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Ross  

Thank you.

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Voiceover  

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Outro

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